Default message to CMs affects segmenting

[mirjam_465]

Since last year, we not only have presubs in English but also in Portuguese and occasionally French and Spanish. Initially, Viki didn’t give any additional instructions regarding how to handle this new phenomenon so most segmenters continued A&C-ing like they used to, assuming the OL moderators would fix the extra language or the CS would paste the subs back after QC.
In those cases, the OL presubs either got completely lost or were at least temporarily gone. This made viewers complain and so Viki started forbidding segmenters to combine, which had huge consequences for the quality of the segments (and back then also for the amount of contributions the segmenters could earn).
In the meantime, CSs developed ways to combine segments while still making sure none of the presubs would get lost and by now, almost every active segmenter is well-versed in A&C (E+P) and the new ones learn it at the academy, where this is now integrated in the lessons. For any old segmenters who don’t have experience with the new ways yet, there are opportunities to learn the skill, either at the academy or from individual CSs. The bottom line here is that segmenters nowadays have the skills and knowledge to fully do their job without losing any subtitles and Viki knows it.

And yet… Viki still includes this in all of the messages they send to CMs:

“Please do not combine any segments during the A&Cs as this will result in the OL subs being deleted in the process. And if that happens, we will have to reimport all subs, which will erase all the hard work from the team, and that’s something we want to avoid.”

No, Viki, this will NOT result in the OL subs being deleted cause we segmenters know what we are doing. We save all the presubs beforehand and even that is nothing more than a safety net that in reality, we hardly ever have to use cause we recover the subtitles in the process and the chance of losing even 1 subtitle is extremely low for experienced segmenters.

It seems clear to me that the message to the CMs needs an update. The warning for the segmenting team doesn’t suit the modern practices anymore. It’s outdated. However, it still affects us. Not all CMs are aware of the situation and they don’t dare question Viki’s instructions. Hence, they forbid the CS to combine. The CS can try to explain the situation, but this doesn’t always lead to the best results. Some CSs have even been kicked out for refusing to do “adjust-only.”

So, Viki, please stop this practice right now and delete the section from your message to the CMs in which you instruct them to prevent segmenters from doing their actual job. That would not only be better for the segmenters but first and foremost, for your precious viewers, who will then be able to enjoy their favorite shows with optimal quality.

[baepsae29]

Thank you, Mirjam, for bringing up this topic.
If Viki doesn’t listen to us, I hope it at least informs CMs about this issue.
Often when I’m recruited for a CS position I’m faced with this message, and every time I try my best to explain to the CM how segmenters work, how we are now perfectly capable of combining or splitting without any subtitle in any language getting lost. But as you mentioned not all CM dare to go agaist Viki or even ask their permissiom to proceed with A&C, that in the end is always granted.
This message is outdated, it only creates confusion and reduces the timing quality of those shows that end up being adjust only, for no good reason.

[irmar]

Yes, they could substitute it with
“If combining is needed, make sure that you have saved OL subtitles and replace them exactly as they were into the newly made segment”.
Easy peasy.

[manganese]

Well said, Mirjam

[wolkje]

By the time that I became seriously active as a segmenter, A&C (E+P) had already become so normal that, apart from the one unsubbed show I was in, I don’t even know anything else. No CS has ever told me I could only adjust and by now, I see no reason for that request anymore. My first CSs just explained the process of A&C (E+P) to me and ever since, I know what to do.
Therefore, I think it is very strange that Viki still tells CMs that combining segments will lead to deletion of subtitles. Of course, it would… if we were careless. But those who came before me put serious effort into developing methods to avoid the loss of subtitles without compromising the results. Did they do that for nothing?

[tourmaline]

I wholeheartedly agree. By now, there is no reason left to keep telling CMs that combining is not an option. If Viki really wants the best for their viewers, they should start putting some trust in the segmenting community and not create obstacles for us by giving the CMs outdated information. We know perfectly well how to handle multisubbed shows. All we need now is for Viki to believe in us and let us do our job.

[maria_lavendula_77]

I hope they change the message because as stated above we know how to work with more than one language and there are many of us that don’t work on adjust only shows. I don’t as a segger and/or CS, it’s depressing to leave a segment that would have been great combined or split. So please viki change the message so new CMs understand that they can trust the person they have chosen as a CS.

[a_hauth_238]

I am currently CS at a BL. When I asked the CM whether Viki had made certain specifications, I received the following message as a screen:

One important note to your CS: please do not combine any segments during the A&Cs as this will result in the PT subs being deleted in the process. And if that happens, we will have to reimport all subs (EN & PT), which will erase all the hard work from the team, and that’s something we want to avoid. But if you are already familiar with preserving both the subtitles, you can go ahead with the A&C.

Apparently there are different messages for different CMs.

I received this information before this post was written from Mijam.

[mirjam_465]

I have never seen the last line before. I guess it’s an improvement, but they’d better just say, “Make sure that your CS knows how to handle A&C on multisubbed shows” and leave out the “please do not combine” part.

[xylune]

Must be a new version then, for “Put your head on my shoulder” I received the old message as well.

[porkypine]

Yes, that is an annoying canned message. A live ‘person’ is not sending that out. It is automatically appended to the “Congratulations - you got the show” message.

Rather than posting here, The person to write to is @brendas asking for that portion of the message to be removed. Brendas has no control over it. All she can do is pass our request up the ladder.

The original case was that when Viki first dropped shows in 2 to 4 languages it was a disaster! Most CMs were not backing up the episodes so the CSs took that task on.

Many CMs are newbies who don’t know who is who, so that message is directed to them so subs are not lost. Most experienced CSs just ignore that message anyway. The CSs know who the trained segmenters are.

And for newbie CMs who hire people like me, I tell them flat out WHY we will not do ‘paste only’. Once the CMs are educated, we do the segmenting correctly. and for those who fear Viki the ‘boss’ I send them to ask fsl viki for approval, He knows me so all is good.

There was ONE CM who feared “the Viki message” and demanded paste only. I declined that job. I am not sure which poor CS took that thankless job on. I won’t do it because the subtitles pasted across multiple segments are a MESS on the backend. I won’t do that to the Subbers.

[bozoli]

@porkypine

I won’t do it because the subtitles pasted across multiple segments are a MESS on the backend. I won’t do that to the Subbers.

Not allowing merging of segments creates massive problems for OLs, so I would like to give that viewpoint now.

If there is a single thing different between two neighboring (doubled) subs, it is noticeable as a tw-itch. Reason being that all subs are centralized on screen. So the center shifts easily with any change.

A single mistake can be:

• an extra space
• a space on the wrong side of the line break
• a missing full-stop
• a typo which was corrected in one segment, but not in the other.

I’ve only subbed a couple of projects like that and had to copy-paste the same sub once during subbing and the second time during editing, because I was not sure I could detect the error visually, by eye.

It was tedious to translate, took longer AND I still noticed errors here and there while watching

[wolkje]

@porkypine

There was ONE CM who feared “the Viki message” and demanded paste only. I declined that job. I am not sure which poor CS took that thankless job on. I won’t do it because the subtitles pasted across multiple segments are a MESS on the backend. I won’t do that to the Subbers.

And because of such cases, we need Viki to stop telling CMs that segmenters can’t combine.

[mirjam_465]

@porkypine

It is automatically appended to the “Congratulations - you got the show” message.

Hence the word “default”…

@porkypine

Brendas has no control over it.

Then what’s the point? Someone already made a request and what are the results?

@porkypine

The original case was that when Viki first dropped shows in 2 to 4 languages it was a disaster! Most CMs were not backing up the episodes so the CSs took that task on.

And Viki brought that on themselves by suddenly dropping those extra presubs on us without any instructions. Segmenters thought, “it’s not my task.” OL Mods thought, “I’ll do it when I get there.”
But that’s all in the past. And now we are stuck with that misleading message that is obstructing our work.

@porkypine

Many CMs are newbies who don’t know who is who, so that message is directed to them so subs are not lost.

That is exactly the problem. New or not, the last thing Viki needs is a CM who believes that combining segments is not an option.

@porkypine

Most experienced CSs just ignore that message anyway.

As in, they combine behind the CM’s back? That could lead to serious trouble…

@porkypine

And for newbie CMs who hire people like me, I tell them flat out WHY we will not do ‘paste only’. Once the CMs are educated, we do the segmenting correctly.

We all do that because Viki forces us to. We shouldn’t have to.

@porkypine

and for those who fear Viki the ‘boss’ I send them to ask fsl viki for approval,

And some CMs wouldn’t even do that.

@porkypine

I declined that job.

So Viki misleading the CM made you lose a potential job.

[maria_lavendula_77]

@mirjam_465

@porkypine

I declined that job.

So Viki misleading the CM made you lose a potential job.

There are sadly many stories where people have lost jobs because they refuse to do adjust only.

[porkypine]

@maria_lavendula_77

many stories where people have lost jobs because they refuse to do adjust onl

I have more than enough work as it is. I am sad that the show is not done correctly but I won’t be a part of bad segmenting.

The problem has been here ever since they started dropping extra languages.

I do point out certain things to @brendas who passes it up the system. But some ‘official’ who is NOT a segmenter makes the decisions on what the default message contains. They only care about what the public sees and when the public complains that subs are missing THAT affects Viki’s bottom line. So we have to deal with it. It is a corporate decision.

[brendas]

Hi everyone - we appreciate everyone’s input on the segmenting message being sent to CMs and apologize for the confusion this has caused. I’ve funneled this up to the appropriate team. Moving forward, they will adjust the message per @mirjam_465 suggestion by removing the “please do not combine” part and saying instead “making sure your CS knows how to handle A&C on multisubbed shows.” Thank you again for helping us remedy this!

[mirjam_465]

Thank you, Brenda. That is great news.