Viki

Thoughts on abusive activity


#8

No idea, I haven’t checked it, nor do I want to :upside_down_face:


#9

On 1 side, I’m like “Oh yeah, it’s not her channel, so why bother with it? It’s not her job to look out for it.”
(the devil voice)

But then, on 1 side, I’m like "Oh but still, if we all reacted like that, it means that a lot of shows would be… and we’d let CMs would do as they’d like (not reporting to Viki such problems).
(the angel voice)

It means that if editors let some mistakes, since we’re not editors, we would think “Oh, it’s their job, it’s not mine.”

So 50-50 feelings on this for me. It depends. :slight_smile:


#10

I didn’t mention this before, but I didn’t just warn her once or twice, I did that for every episode I was working on (and I did most). Since Viki was working on the project as well, I discussed my issues that I had about their staff’s segments as well (and trying to find out if the abuser was part of their staff), so they were aware of everything that was happening on the segment side. After doing that for at least 10 episodes, I got tired of it, because the CM didn’t react to anything, instead she asked me to fix everything (I wasn’t Chief segmenter, she didn’t have one, so I asked her to recruit someone).

At least the staff members who were working on the project, tried to fix their following segments according to my pointers and afterwards they enrolled in the NSSA (I saw their names on the list). I have a lot of patience, but I am not wasting my time when someone doesn’t want to listen. I tried, it didn’t work, I’m not going to force her. Viki knew, I did all I could.


#11

Lol we really studied hard in nssa, and it’s by doing the training that we understand how much we need it.
I think all viki staff who might have to fix segments one day should follow the training like any segmenter.
There are standards that are the result of watching exp, the only way to know, understand them and assimilate them is by doing this training.

(So it was fixed by Viki staff?)

I think you could have formulated differently to ask something different: asking for the channel management or finding someone else as CM so that person could fix or recruit a CS.

I don’t agree with all the replies from Viki or every way they solved things, they know.
So each time, I’m giving them feedbacks (good or no), so maybe they could understand better our problems and find a better way to fix.


#12

I’m not interested in managing channels and the CM was a first-timer (which isn’t an excuse, I just figured she needed more tips/ time). I did all I could as a segmenter on the project: Viki knew what was going on, CM was aware of what was wrong. I checked the comment section and viewers only complained about not having subs.

I don’t know if they eventually fixed everything (after I stopped), but what I meant is that when they continued segmenting, after I called them out on a few things, they made an effort f.e. to make their segments longer, to sorta add extensions, etc. It wasn’t perfect, but at least they tried and after they enrolled in the NSSA.

In this situation, it would’ve been nice if random people couldn’t enter the project to segment. I’ve experienced it on other dramas as well, even designated dramas, where a random user would enter and start segmenting, while that shouldn’t be possible. But this is a situation that happened in the past, I don’t know if they have changed it now. If they did, good.


#13

Edit: you mean that you didn’t know if the abuser was a Viki staff member?
Is it another joke? Xd
If they try to segment without having done nssa, what about the content provider? I don’t think it’s a good idea…

It must have been a new member. Yeah, it is hard to believe they don’t know how we work and why we work like that.


(I wanted to delete A from B because I misunderstood it in a good way so I let it)
(A)
I don’t really know who the unlucky viki staff members were to have to fix segments of an abuser without having foundations in nssa training and then re-fix it following your advice on extensions.
Maybe new members or members who didn’t know?

Because I think if they knew that the CM was ignorant, that they could just change CM who will recruit a CS and the CS would do it for them and that maybe, it would have saved them precious time… I think they would have listened to your suggestion?
I don’t really understand the move of recruiting a new CM who will give more work to Viki staff members by fixing segments because the CM didn’t know what a CS is or didn’t want to listen to his segmenter’s good advice.

I think I should just do what you did, asking Viki staff members to correct segments from abusers (actually, it’s a good idea so they will enroll in nssa, learn segmentation and they will understand our pain so they will take reports in a whole new level because they will have to fix them themselves and against abusive contributions, they will be more drastic and abusers would think twice. It could even be a training ground for Viki staff members when they learn in nssa program. There would be less abusers, less reports to take care of).
(B)
__

It’s the reason why I think giving feedbacks to Viki is important from our part:

  • How can I detect some abnormalities in segmentation if I don’t understand segmentation and its basis?
    How can we recognize abnormalities in the segment timer once we’re in there if we don’t know the visuals of a correct segment or the visual of an adequate extension?
    How can we segment or fix correctly if we don’t know what is correct?
  1. (You have detected them because you’ve learnt it during your training in nssa, but not some Viki staff or new CM because they didn’t do it)
  • How can I think of recruiting a Chief segmenter if I don’t know his role and the importance of it?
  1. (You know how to solve it because you know what a Chief segmenter is, but not the new CM or some Viki staff:
  • between asking Viki staff or anyone who never did nssa at all and ask them to fix segments
  • vs asking a chief segmenter to do it
    Any volunteer here: what will you pick? Why? What’s the fastest and effective way?)

I think some Viki staff don’t really know how to work with volunteers because they are not volunteers and don’t know how we work.
They haven’t worked in a volunteer team to know why it’s like that, why if you touch here, it’s going to have consequences in this area, or why extensions are needed or why a CS is needed. Why we can be bothersome here and there, because we know that it’s going to ask us more work if it’s not done correctly at this step or by someone who knows the rules.

These are basic things that you know when you are CM (because it’s needed) and if you don’t know, just ask around.
Whom to ask? Team, moderators, editors, here on this forum.
But before asking, I think it’s best to read guides out there that everyone is normally aware of:

Nssa guides in translating, in segmenting and in channel roles:



All of them when you’re CM, you have to know them.
This is not highly recommended, it’s a must for me.

And these guides should also be read by Viki staff, because how can you solve what is wrong (our problems) if you don’t know what is correct/what is wrong?
If some Viki staff members don’t understand something we’re talking about, they can just ask us before. I don’t mind (I even prefer that vs they reply but not giving me an adequate solution to my problem).
In that way, they won’t need to read all the explanations we make (sometimes, I don’t know if the Viki staff knows this and that or will understand this and that, so to be clear in my ticket, I add many details (too many)). If they knew from reading the manual, they would understand immediately, they might know how to solve it fast and we won’t be bothersome. Gaining time for everyone.

I don’t know if they received a training or enough information about how it really works when they arrived, that’s why I think it’s not too idiot that they read these guides, they follow nssa training and they ask us questions in how we volunteer, the order, because maybe they don’t know how they can solve some of our problems fast, but we know (but they don’t know that we know or we don’t dare to tell them something different from their solution?)


#14

Question of the day:

Are moderators who only copy and paste OST considered abusers?


#15

Do you mean that that’s the only thing they contribute and nothing more? Or if that’s the only “subs” they contribute, while still managing the team, etc.?


#16

As a Moderator, you often have to get your hands dirty, helping here and there, subtitling, editing, particularly when there are no subtitlers.
So my question is, are those moderator who are ONLY copying and pasting OST abusing their authority, and should they be considered as abuser.


#17

If there are only a few subtitlers and the mod should help out with subbing, but only copies and pastes the OST, then it does look like abuse.

Personally I copy/paste OST in the episodes I work on as a moderator because I want them to be uniform and sometimes I translate them from the OL (mostly with Chinese dramas), which means that the translation won’t resemble the EN lyrics that much. But I also do most of the subbing, so I wouldn’t call that abuse :slight_smile:

I know some moderators have rules about how they want their OSTs, so they tell the team to leave them blank. I have no problems with that either, since those mods are often the editors as well.


#18

Well, just like feyfayer said, if they are ignoring their duties (for example leaving the drama unsubbed or unedited) and just doing that then yes. This is abuse.
But if the team is doing great and he subs are well done then no.
Personally, I translate the OST and put it for my subbers to copy and paste from when they encounter OST segments. But many of them find it too much of a hassle and just leave them to me. So I give them the opportunity to do it and leave the choice for them.


#19

I’m of course, talking about the first case.
Since it could be considered as abuse, what can be done to ensure that this case doesn’t occur?
When someone is abusing a drama, while subtitling and such, we do report them. In that case, what should we be doing? Because that’s a particular kind of abuse.

Yes, I also know some subtitlers that find it boring. As for me, that is kind of a reward for accomplishing a part.


#20

Who writes the subs then? Do they tell their subbers to not post the lyrics by themselves?


#21

[justine_desmoulins]
Question of the day:
Are moderators who only copy and paste OST considered abusers?

Of course not.
Usually I take care of all the OST. Because I had made the first translation, then the English changes (maybe because the OST has been released, or maybe because there isn’t an editor to check consistency, and each subber translates them as she wishes) and I have to change in the previous episodes, but sometimes I like the previous version better etc… Anyway, it’s a heck of a job, and I couldn’t expect any subber to do it.
I copy paste the OST before giving the green light to the subbers, so that they find it ready. At any rate, in my method of “continuous translation”, if they want to do more than one part, or two parts, or three, they are welcome. So it’s not that I deprive them from the chance to gain some subs.

Now of course, in my case, I also do the editing. Your question was about moderators who don’t edit, they just insert the lyrics. But my answer is the same. They cannot be considered abusers, since it is within their right.
I’ve seen some segmenters who also insert subtitles here and there, and OST lyrics. Maybe so that the others know which is the right place for them to be. They are not abusers either.
I once had a CM who knew a little Korean, so she inserted a translation every now and then, a simple sentence like “Are you okay” or “I love you” or “What do you mean?” etc. You know, the little things we all know by now. It was a bit funny, a translated sentence in the middle of nowhere, that the subber had to skip when she came to translate. Maybe the subbers were a bit annoyed, I don’t know… But since it gave this CM pleasure to ascertain the degree of progress she was making in Korean, that was no biggie for us.


#22

Vague guidelines
+copying ost only is OK (no helping in subbing and/or editing = do the minimum)
+environment (= we lack subbers (subbing desert), we lack editors (it asks time to edit), we have more and more Viki pass obstructions so finding newborn is like finding…, we have not less dramas)
+no sanction (except last time: Viki bot)

= mix everything and you obtain…
The perfect recipe for:
Hoarding, unfinished subs, bot (and volunteers?)

It is impossible in French right now with the environment on Viki to have a moderator who doesn’t “have to” help = subbing and/or editing.
Why? Because of the speed and complains. One day or another, you lack subbers in the middle/end of the drama.
You normally moderate and/or manage more than one drama (and or segmenting, editing, subbing on dramas you do moderate or manage or don’t moderate or manage)

Except if you ask/beg for massive help on your drama as a moderator
Which leads to:
-> being a moderator in name only and the job is done by subbers and editors and one of them becomes the moderator (behind)
-> and the same mods continue to ask for it…

Creating this hole is an opening to hoarding.

Better to ask French teams.

PS:
The guidelines indicates max 4 on-air/mod:

If the moderator only fills OST, recruits… the number 4 is questionable.
Copying-pasting: it takes 5 min / ep in general.
With 4 on-air : 20 min for all of them / a day.
Translating and editing one: 20-30 min (and it’s only once).

How can we say it’s actively participating in a drama for a moderator with 20 min a day to fill OST.
Anyone can do it… no need to know the language.

If it only takes this amount of time; why limiting to 4 on-air.
For me, the limit of 4 has another meaning to a moderator activity on a drama.


#23

I do not know if it is abuse but I would like to add one thing. I think you’re right for Korean dramas. It is important to check consistency of OSTs, because it is a real mess. HOWEVER, you should know that in Chinese dramas, Beginning / Final OSTs are always the same. They are identical. Which means that: usually the moderator / editor translates and edits both OSTs for the first episode and add them. Then, OSTs are still the same, just copy / paste for 60 episodes. A task that everyone can do. Personally, I let translators do that. Being a translator myself, I greatly appreciate copying / pasting the OST after hard translating a part for a while. Is it a reward or respect? I think I like listening to the OST too.

I remember a drama where I translated more than 20 episodes by myself, I had never heard the OST. No joke. But, that’s ok. Because the main thing is that viewers can watch the drama.


#24

Yes, you’re right, I didn’t take those into consideration. Because the very few times when I watch a Chinese drama I always skip them, LOL.
But even in Korean dramas they have beginning and ending credits songs. Especially the ending (the ending rock and roll/ rockabilly song in Melting Me Softly is making me crazy, I am not able to find it anywhere!)
The problem is that before the song is released, every subber gives her own version.
That’s why cgwm808 usually doesn’t sub songs before they are released. She releases the episode at 98% and then, when the official lyrics come out, she goes back and fills them in. They are easier to find if they are blank than if they were with a tentative, most often wrong, translation. Song lyrics often don’t make sense anyway even if you have the whole version in front of your eyes, so how to make sense of little snippets out of context that you catch by ear? Especially the English ones, with their grammar mistakes, can drive you crazy. Like “I want live I want love” from I Wanna Hear Your Song, or “The feeling of adore, oh take me on to you” from Encounter or… the list is endless)
In Chinese dramas, you get the official lyrics right away or do you have to wait for a couple of weeks like in Korean ones?


#25

For Chinese dramas, most of the time, OST lyrics appear on the screen. If this is not the case, we usually have the official translations, or sometimes English team don’t wait for official translation. Generally, main OSTs (there can sometimes have only two OST for a drama of 60 episodes), are translated in the first episodes. It can happen that new OSTs appear as along the drama, they are then translated automatically and edited for everyone, all language, after released.

I’m not part of the English team, so they will speak better than me about that, but it’s better organized for Chinese dramas. Generally, it is organized from the beginning. Then it never changes (it’s always the same thing).

I know it’s very different with the Koreans dramas, though. And each team has its own way of managing things. But overall, I would say that all Chinese dramas don’t have the same problems with OSTs as Koreans dramas. Which makes things very easy for contributors on chinese dramas. This brings us back to the question: If OSTs are the same for 60 episodes, if they are translated and edited in English but also in the other language, that everyone can do it since there is just only to copy / paste… So that’s the question justine asking (Maybe not? I think that’s it).

Personally, for me it is not an “abuse” in the meaning of abusing/abuser. But it is an abuse in the meaning of respect. On a Chinese drama, there are usually 4 parts per episode, and we can have from 100 to 250 segments for a part. If the translators work hard to translate all this and, that arrived at the end, the moderator has only copy / paste the OST for the episode… One wonders what is the motivation of this act from moderator because it changes nothing that this is the translator who does it or not. This is only my opinion. Everyone does what he wants.

-> Maybe these persons have different opinions and reasons. Please, explain more your argumentation so.


#26

I think it’s not an abuse if the team AND the mod also copy/paste the OST.

Like my case, i translate the OST and a co-mod will edit it after it. And in each ep everyone will get a different part so everyone, subbers and mod’s, will get the opening or ending ost.
Every german team works like that and every subber loves to copy/paste the OST because this will take some work of them if you translate a heavy & historic cdrama, you know what i am talking about :smiley:


#27

The question is not:

  • Can the mod fill OST segments on episodes?
    Is he allowed to?

The question is:

  • Can the mod only fill OST segments?
    Could he only do this task?
    Keyword: Only
    Synonym = Exclusively. He does this and only this as a moderator.

To be sure about what Justine meant:

Question 1:

Question 2:

Answers suggestions:

Question 1:

  • Read the Viki guidelines as a mod’s role.
    Actively participates: if 20 min a day only filling OST segments = actively participating as a moderator. I wonder what “moderate” or “moderator” not on Viki but everywhere means.
    4 on-air dramas max: for a good reason. I don’t understand this rule of 4 max with only filling OST.
    Incompatible between real activity and the reason of this rule existence…

  • Hoarding:
    If it’s so easy, only fill OST and you won’t be considered a hoarder.

  • What is not written on Viki guidelines = allowed?
    I don’t think so. It’s interpretation and common sense.
    If as a moderator you think it is okay only to fill OST subs, then let’s add it into Viki guidelines.

What will moderators and new moderators think it’s okay to do and will do?

  • only filling OST subs
  • telling that the 4 max is not compatible so put the limit higher.

And we will make it legit? LOL
Welcoming hoarding
We have not learnt from the bot

If all French moderators worked like that and we made it “okay”, we’d be in deep sea.
It would be impossible to finish many dramas or to edit without the mods who are editing their own dramas.
It would be impossible to have some quality.
It would be impossible to have the number of French subscribers we have today.

The job of a moderator is not the same than a subber, but it can’t be less than a subber in responsibility or in tasks to do.

Let’s be honest or realist, if it was the best of the world, we would have no hoarding matter, no report matters, subs would be there

As a moderator, who will only fill OST segments? It’s a task anyone can do, and it’s exactly because of this, that if a mod only does this: it is not fine. Why is he a mod if he only fills OST? Nonsense. What’s the use then to create a moderator role, what’s the use of a moderator if he doesn’t seek for the completion and quality (really seaking in action)? As a CM, you can count on whom?

And as a subber, who will only fill OST segments or credits?
As a moderator, if you see an Asian/Other language-English subber (a real one, not segmenter) copying pasting only OST segments in each episode: ?
Hello?

I will never teach to a new moderator: you can only fill OST and it’s fine.
And he will do it again and again… thinking it’s fine.
If as a mod, you don’t learn anything in this role or don’t want to: miss the whole point.

Question 2:
Report (Viki will see) and ask for a call with Viki (they said they’d try to do it).