I must say, I’m loving seeing the data points in this discussion! Based on a cursory glance, am I right to interpret that the Chinese provided subtitles tend to need more work than their Korean counterparts?
Not sure I’m reading this well!
Absolutely! The idea is to open up the floor and talk about challenges and issues to see if we can come up with some solutions to these long term issues and the academies are a very important piece of the puzzle! I will be working on a form to collect interest and the best time to meet.
We can also run a few of these forums to make sure we cover all timezones for everyone who wishes to participate!
That’s the idea! We can discuss potential solutions as well and reach a consensus or experiment with various workflows. There are internal resource constraints but we can find a happy medium.
Funny that you mentioned that @cgwm808 as we are looking into this again. It is on the roadmap for investigation and we hope to get somewhere with it this time! No promises yet~
Agreed, and it does sound like the correction of segments is terrible! I hear you and I want to help.
As mentioned above, I’ll be sharing a form soon (most likely next Monday SGT) to make sure we collect interest and best timing for the planned discussion as well as potential topics to make sure we don’t deviate. Let me know if you have another solution or ideas on how we can do this effectively!
First of all, thank you for considering this discussion and our concerns.
I want to answer your question in two steps, based on the following observation: Korean and Chinese dramas are not the same, not at all. They are not managed by the same people, they don’t have the same number of episodes, the language is different, the genres are different… Not the same provider, not the same country.
1.Chineses dramas: Most of the time, Chinese ones arrive on viki raw, which means that viki contributors take care of it (sometimes with the help of translators paid by viki). But lately, they are coming, on viki, more and more often with the content of the chinese provider. I guess you guys get the license, and they also give you English translations, but we don’t know where it came from.
So, we compared 6 Chinese dramas: 3 translated by us, 3 translated by the content provider. These 6 dramas were edited in English by viki contributors: in TE (translation editor), GE (general editor) and CE (chief editor).
Here are the results and data points:
Even with a margin of error around 20%, we can clearly see that english editors modify more translations in meaning, spelling, syntax… with the translations of content provider, rather than the translations of viki volunteers.
Another thing, segmentation:
We can see that the segmenters spend more time correcting segments of the content provider, than doing the segments ourselves (+15 to 60 min for one part).
In addition, correcting is not the same job as doing it ourselves, it requires more energy.
Conclusion for Chinese dramas: correcting translations and segments of the content provider requires more time and energy for segmenters and English editors, mainly TEs (translation editors). It also has a big impact on quality/accuracy for viewers.
2.Korean dramas: Korean dramas arrive on viki mainly in raw, they are translated by viki contributors. But sometimes it happens that some dramas are not translated by viki contributors. There are therefore two cases: they are translated by KOCOWA or by translators paid by viki. In these cases, viki contributors do not make any changes. There is therefore no English edition team for these dramas.
This means that we cannot assess the difference in change. As for the quality and accuracy of these dramas, I cannot speak about them because I am not Korean. If we had English editors who were able to correct these dramas, we could give you an overview of the quality of these translations. But it’s impossible. In addition, since we don’t have access, it’s obvious that we don’t spend more time on it. On the other hand, one thing is undeniable, segments are really bad compared to those we do.
3. Final conclusion (3 steps, therefore)
There is a problem with Chinese dramas. It tires us. And I hope we can find solutions all together for Chinese dramas. We need to find solutions for collective well-being of segmenters, editors and for provided quality and accuracy subtitles for viki viewers on Chinese Dramas.
For Korean ones, I don’t really see for now problems. Did Korean dramas have problems, guys?
4. Solutions for Chinese Dramas and content provider (requires thinking about what can be best for everyone).
Give CM AND English team the conscious opportunity*** to choose how they want to use these translations from the content provider: put them directly and do edition or have dramas in raw and use content provider if necessary (put them in Reference subtitles)
Do you guys have more ideas regarding this concern?
All of this impacts me personally for segmentation, but not for TE. If some TE or editors want to speak, please do so… (Or maybe you guys are too busy editing that kind of content, no time to answer lol).
***Note: I mean viki has to tell them they have a choice to make, It’s not an obligation. Because some CM are newbies… So a conscious choice for CM AND English team, directly impacted.
I worked on a Chinese pre-subbed movie and a Korean pre-subbed movie. I felt the Korean one was harder for viewers to understand as there were several complaints about bad subs. So I offered to help get it edited faster, and I did it in about six hours. The first three parts approximately were already edited by the TE. When she came after me, she didn’t have to change much so I was pleasantly surprised that the pre-subs were translated correctly, although with poor grammar.
On the Chinese movie, the complaints were about the timing being off, and I always have to wait for the segmenters, but they fix that. Of course, I highly appreciate their work! I edited the Chinese movie in about seven hours, but I didn’t have another editor who did any parts before me. After the TE finished, I checked the re-edits and there wasn’t much due to language translation.
Just like with anything else, there are good and not as good subtitlers in every language. Some doctors, teachers, workers are good and some are not so good. I don’t think we can generalize about language translators or even editors. When I encounter a pre-subbed show, I don’t run from the challenge. I roll up my sleeves and get to it. The segmenters I follow are highly efficient and committed volunteers.
I don’t envy CMs and their challenge to find volunteers who won’t run from a project. I know of several dramas subbed from scratch, and I’m still waiting months to finish watching those shows because of very slow subs. Faster is not better, but slower is not better, either. I just finished watching a 2014 Korean drama subbed from scratch, and I was appalled at the misspelling. I almost felt like asking the CM if I could re-edit the English, but I choose to conserve my time and effort to work with my current CM. I know my limits and energy resources so I only take on what I can do to the best of my ability.
Exactly. We should compare only same things. It’s like comparing the happy poor with the unhappy rich. What about the unhappy poor? If you must have bad health or a bad marriage, money surely makes a difference. Isn’t being rich and heartbroken better than poor and heartbroken?You can at least resort to shopping therapy or go abroad on a trip meet someone else. And if you are sick, isn’t being rich in a good hospital with the best care better than poor with no money to pay the doctor and your family having to go backrupt to pay hospital bills?
In the same way, if a subber (or editor) is good, s/he will be good either in a fast drama or a slow drama. If a subber (or editor) is not good, s/he will not improve if given more many months.
It’s not as if the subber (or editor) spends these months pondering each word or anything. In all probability, the subbing (or editing) speed of any given episode part is exactly the same. It’s just the time between parts, when the person is not in the Subtitle Editor, when the person is not even on Viki, that takes up the weeks and months.
and talking about sth we don’t know about/we know about
experiences… subbers, seggers and TE with x exp on pre / GE with y exp on pre. Not comparable.
It’s like asking my baker to heal my teeth… or a detailed opinion on sth I haven’t watched.
Or subjectivity/objectivity…
Mmm… I don’t read timing complaints on this movie (reviews or comments)
Is it this Cmovie you’re talking about?
Who is the TE on this Kmovie? They’re really scarce and if a skilled TE is new on Viki (cgwm has a good test for Korean), maybe that TE could help on Kdramas elsewhere!
Yes, those are the movies. The comments about timing were on the team discussion. That CM is very pro-active and usually gives the heads-up before complaints can register on public comments. Regarding the TE, I don’t like to speak for anyone else because I feel people offer where they desire. Here is a list of people who have offered to do Korean translations:
KOREAN
ocastillo98
japelgren
nikkilain
bobamlkt_335
banjjagineunchonsa
parkjaehyun
hehe_thatsfunny_371
saranglove101
myeongchojune_218
tamara56lovekj
schnoop
hugh_sophia_567
dongbangb2uty
manas_subbaraman_529
jenarrtee
riesem97_306
sysyppp_602
kjk_916
cherry_blossom3
shaexo
triviaaiu
xandreee
sadpromise
tracyzhengx
Also, I don’t know if cgwm wants to test new people. If I was a Korean moderator looking for new trainees to one day become TEs, I would check out: Want to subtitle? Let people know!
I found that editing a pre-subbed drama of 36 forty-minute episodes was not substantially different than editing a movie of 1 hour and 40 minutes, except for the amount of time commitment. With the drama, I felt it was reasonable to edit a whole episode per day, but I edited the full movie in one day. I’m not a person who can leave a task half done. For me, it’s like leaving my hands half-washed. I just can’t do it. Of course, I always do a second check before I leave the task at hand. If I awake the next morning with an afterthought, I always listen to my intuition and go re-check the segment.
We now have the answer regarding pre-subbed shows that they arrive at Viki that way. Thus I do not feel that Viki’s standards are low, but rather high since it is our volunteers who fix the segmenting. Thank you to all the wonderful segmenters on Viki.
I will be leaving this discussion now since my concerns were answered by Viki staff. I wish to express my appreciation that they listened to this issue and responded. I always live to seek solutions, and I try to spend my time more productively than complaining. I choose not to control others as I have enough to control my own life.
I am personally invested in seeing Viki thrive because of what happened to DF. I choose to do my part, however small that may be in the worldwide community of Viki, since the need for English general editors can only grow with pre-subbed shows.
Thanks for the list of subbers, if anyone wants to contact them, they can be directly contacted thanks to this list by other teams and English teams.
But in the list of subbers, we don’t have the TE, so we can’t contact her… let’s not exclude her, she could miss an opportunity and reading your messages, it seems positive.
Exactly! She could be part of the solution to help dramas missing a TE.
No harm done if we just contact her like we can contact subbers from this list. Let me ask the TE, she would be pleased.
At this least this conversation could help find other TE for future dramas
@worthyresponse – Last week I did pm several of those who said the wanted to sub from Korean to Englisn – I chose five people – and only one responded.
It’s not only low but people are toxic as well. I used Viki many years ago before Rakuten took over and added all these benefits. Recently there was a drama I really loved and decided to help out translating even though I don’t use Viki to watch it. At first I thought the TE would know how to use idiomatic English but they are not a native speaker. When I try to have a discussion about it they start to berate my work and myself. They shamelessly take my translation, adding a word that can be omitted in English and call it their own. Then turn around and said that I tried to shamelessly steal the TE work.
That’s when I realized the Viki translating community is no longer made of only fans who sub because they love the show but because of the benefits Viki gave. I feel sorry for the subbers who spent hours on it for the TE to take the credit doing almost next to nothing sometime. Good Luck to the translators out there who decided to put up with this BS. You guys deserved better. If you have to spent hours on end to get the translation you should demand that your editor be someone who is better at the language then you and not the other way around.
The person that was berating me was the person in charge. I spent over 20 hours making the translation and I apologized to her when I tried to recorrect what they butchered since I wasn’t an editor. But instead of stopping there she went on about how my translation was incorrect or I should say she said “uncorrect” and continuously called me shameless, worthless, etc. Telling me I was trying to take the TE credits. What credits? I did it for free -.- I don’t use the site to watch any drama. What credit could I possibly get?
Funny you mentioned credits. It always amazes me how people (mostly the insecure conceited sort) get territorial over a sub which no viewer knows they created.
One sub can be overwritten by 20 people and each of those 20 people will have it counted into their contributions. So, what are they really after when insisting on their version of the sub? To see their own sub on screen. That is all. They are the only ones who will know it’s their sub, but that doesn’t matter. Because the ego is too strong, and their sub, no matter how incoherent or inaccurate it is, will remain on that screen.
Some individuals are overly territorial and need to be put in place from time to time. By whom? The nearest boss. In this case that would be the CM, although disputes over language do not fall into their job description.
And this is exactly why people on Viki like to work with other users they already know. Because there is already an established level of trust AND even if you don’t write something (ie. criticise) extremely politely and unambiguously, what you wrote will not be put into a negative context.
It’s a little baffling honestly, they sound as if they’re in a cult. If they are adversed to outside help and input they could have said so from the beginning. I don’t really mind if the editor place in one letter to my sub and call it their own if they edited correctly, but they did not. Which was agitating since I’m somewhat of a perfectionist. I even have some people help me irl to make sure everything was good for an English speaker. I felt sorry for wasting their time and now we even get insulted by the CM. And so they told me “you shouldn’t have done it for free. No good deed go unpunished.” I couldn’t disagree.
That sounds terrible. I’m glad I don’t have to use Viki to watch my favorite show. The video quality isn’t that great to begin with for the standard nowadays even though you have to pay for Viki Premium. I just hope that other translators out there who had to go through this BS or is going through it right now would think about quitting. They deserve better as human being and shouldn’t have to get berated by these terrible people.
I’m glad I don’t need subtitles to understand the show. I just feel sad that the community had became like this, especially with all that is happening in the world atm. I thought people would be more decent but one can only hope.
Reply to your PS: I did submit a report in with the conversation I had with them. Afterward I received another msg from them (warning technically was what they wrote as the title). I didn’t open it to read what they had to say since I didn’t want to waste anymore time on them. But from what you say they might just put me in the wrong. I don’t mind being ban from this site to be honest, it hold no value to me. I have never and now will never watch any drama on here.
No, I think I’m done with volunteering for Viki. The new ‘team/cult’ thing is just too baffling for me. I’m sorry you had to go through it. I only wanted to go on the forum to make sure I wasn’t imagining things and that IT IS THAT BAD on Viki.
I wish an actual company employee, who’s competent, can see what’s going on with Viki and fix this toxicity. There’s too many Oedipus around now.
It happens, but the scenery is not the same everywhere on Viki.
Probably, there are people closed to suggestions or people more opened to it, it is like everywhere.
Later, the suggestions need to be reviewed, approved or not.
I’ve met English or French editors on Viki who were opened and took the feedback or took the time to explain me calmly why it stayed like this. It’s awesome because I can learn something new with them through our exchange. In general, people with whom I could exchange positively about this are turned towards one goal “Is the subtitle fine, accurate or is there a better way to subtitle it?” or “What is the grammar rule?”
The Q&A from both participants are not “You are wrong” or “This is trash”… that’s not the goal or the intent and everyone can make mistakes.
(Uncorrect (archaïc apparently) according to here and here. I’m not a native, so if someone has better references or knowledge being a native, he is welcome)
It’s the same conversation we had with another volunteer earlier this year, don’t give up if it’s truly what you enjoy doing and you have the ability in the language department.
Sometimes, we need more time to make new and positive encounters.
The volunteer is still contributing today and took a fancy in finishing dramas.
We can find our own place, just that we have to look for it and live some experiences to know what we will prefer or what will suit us and at the same time, be useful. Yeah, enjoying and being useful, I will put them together.
There are volunteers who have met each other.
I’ve met volunteers I’m about to meet in real life and even one invited me to spend summertime in Greece. If I had decided to be away from my first difficulty on Viki, I would have missed encountering them.
Let me be the devil’s advocate here. If you are not a TE but a subber, you have no job to touch the TE’s corrections, even if you thought they butchered what was initially good. Ask someone else to intervene or bring proof (links to grammar sites etc.) that yours were correct, and discuss. But you are NOT to touch them. If and when a subber corrects my edits I get SUPER PISSED. Especially when they are good edits, and she reverts to something wrong. This happened once and I made a huge fuss.
Are you 100% sure you were correct? You made several English mistakes in your posts here.
Of course where you are right and she was wrong is the matter of being civil and polite. She should have explained to you why she decided those translations were wrong. We have to observe good manners here, and try to help people become better, not insult them and make them feel worthless, driving them away from Viki. This should be a given, but unfortunately it seems that it’s not a given for many.
This means that - whatever her editing skills - she is not a good person, and definitely not a team worker.
(reviews or comments)
