It’s an interesting oxymoron indeed!!
The macmillan dictionary also has a buzz words section in which they explain the history of some words and give more examples of situations when sb is humblebragging, so any reader can recognize this type of situation.
Piranna, You’re a Treasure!! You made me laugh So Much just now, without meaning it. Thank you. I was in need of that just now (work break).
Oxymoron
Read the meaning and an example. Eg. ‘Cruel kindness’
But while reading the word my brain only tells me: oxidized (rusted) moron
Or could it be a moron with an oxidized blonde color hair? hahhaahahaha
Sofalizing
Oh!! I’m disappointed I was expecting it to be a Garfield verb. Eg. I’m going to ‘sofalize’ for the rest of the afternoon while watching TV.
Piranna, Thank You!! :)) You cheered up my break
Happy weekend!! XD
PS: Same signature as WR… Didn’t notice it. I must look for another one, I want one of my own!! How about, this one?
Stay healthy and take care.
The same for everyone.
Health. Peace. Happiness.
Lyla
PS: very interesting article, by the way, and loved the ending.
Man naturally has a passion for knowing," said Aristotle* . If the state of ignorance is our initial state, it is not our destiny. You cannot be happy if you remain ignorant all your life. But the increase in our knowledge is the source of many disappointments. Thus, despite the progress of knowledge, the acceptance of our finitude conditions our happiness. To be happy, it is better to be wise than learned.
In subbing and editing, I use three or four different Korean to English dictionaries, and for historical dramas, I use the Korean website Encyclopedia of Korean Culture and also database which has been created from the Joseon dynasty annals. Historical dramas have lots of words which are no longer in use and can’t be found in ordinary dictionaries. For the archaic words, if the hanja is available I also refer to online Chinese- English dictionaries. When an English word is used which I am not familiar with, even though I am a native speaker, I usually check Webster’s dictionary. For legal questions i refer to the Ministry of Justice’s excellent database of Korean laws which has a wonderful feature – side by side English and Korean text.
If you are interested in English editing, I suggest that you write in “About Me” on your profile page. Write why you think you would do a good job of editing. Also, I highly recommend that you write at least three reviews and do it with excellent English, no spelling, grammar or punctuation mistakes. When I will work with another editor on a drama, I check out how well s/he wrote all the English on his/her profile page. If they do editing already, I look at their recent edits.
Here is the full Word Document of all my Editor’s Notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qUwr1YQYK6kw82Bo8xeuoekwaVFHg3JKY20TO_ouE8s/edit
I continue adding to it as I encounter new things in editing subs. Here are some recent things I noticed that even long-term editors don’t seem to know.
When placing an ellipsis, it is like a period or semicolon, with no space before… but a space after.
In English grammar, a comma splice or comma fault is using a comma to join two independent sentences. Comma splices are incorrect because commas are not strong enough to hold two independent clauses together, which becomes a run-on sentence. Change the comma to a period and capitalize the next letter.
Form clear questions with words such as: who, what, where, when, how, why, how much/many, how often, etc. Or reverse the word order to form questions.
Are you happy? Correct.
You are happy? Too unclear!
These unclear questions abound in every drama!!
It’s hard for viewers and other languages which follow us!!!
CONJUNCTIONS at the start of a sentence should have NO comma:
But, the food was now cold. Incorrect comma.
And, my brother needed rest. Incorrect comma.
So, the end has come. Incorrect comma.
Then, I went to town. Incorrect comma.
QUOTATION MARKS
Use double quotation marks at all times unless quoting something within a quotation,
Subbing is not the same as regular writing. We can continue a sentence to the next segment, but not with quotation marks. Even if the subtitle segments were divided like this example:
“If you decide to come,”
“it will be dark by the time you arrive.”
It’s not like regular writing which is: “If you decide to come, it will be dark by the time you arrive.”
Quotation marks in subbing are like lyrics which need music notes for each segment, or like italics for a flashback which are needed on each segment. For a long quote extending over several segments, each segment needs its own set of quotation marks.
Try not to use a break if possible. Example: You must get tested for H. pylori (bacterial infection). Some editors write: You must get tested for H. pylori <br> (T/N: H. pylori is a stomach bacteria infection.) This makes an unnecessarily long subtitle for Viki mobile.
Viewers should be able to read the subtitle within the time given.
Most translators use superfluous words and it’s our job to make the subtitle fit the timing. Many words are repetitious and redundant in a segment:
I went. He went as well. She came also, and then we waited, all of us together.
We went then waited altogether.
This is my example to show how repetitious subs can be, when they need to be concise enough for time given in the segment.
I’m currently training two editors plus editing two dramas so I’m sorry that I can’t do more for you.
… " The AP Stylebook says to treat the ellipsis as a three-letter word, with spaces on either side of the ellipsis but no spaces between the dots." Because the AP stylebook, used for dissertations in the social science says a space on either side is acceptable, that means no space at all is acceptable to me. In keeping with the AP rule, I allow a space on either side, or no space at all in the same set of subtitles. I choose to spend my time on content rather than reviewing spacing for the ellipsis. Just as the spacing may be a matter of preference, translating the same Korean word as “Okay”, “OK” ,“All right”, “Alright” usually are equally acceptable to me and not inconsistent. ( In a historical drama, if someone is talking to the king, I might not use “okay” or “OK” because they seem too casual.)
Yes, subtitles should be grammatical and should be spelled correctly but the spaces for an ellipsis do not change the content or the comprehensibility for other language subbers. For those who edit English on K drama, please note that the ellipsis in Korean scripts very often is just two periods so do not ruffle the feathers of your hard working Korean to English subbers by writing them to tell them to use three periods. Just add the third period yourself.
Personally I just use the Dutch rules: space before and after if complete words are missing and no space before but space after if part of a word is missing.
When writing Dutch translations, you would follow Dutch punctuation rules. When writing Korean translations, one would follow Korean punctuation rules. English editors need to follow English rules for English speakers. I’m currently watching a drama where practically every second segment has two ellipses and often an ellipsis is seven dots long! Of course, I’m watching English subs.
The CE, whom I did GE with when I was first learning, required “Okay” and “All right” as proper English. I confirmed that she was right, and I have followed that ever since. I believe that English editors trained properly from the beginning will continue to practice what they learn.
Regarding breaks, other languages often need longer translations. I also consider them when including explanations. It would be unfortunate for other language translations to end up five lines in a segment. Many Channel managers who are fluent in several languages prefer as few breaks as possible. As a viewer, I also prefer only necessary breaks. I don’t like using my pause and rewind buttons.
My purpose in this particular discussion is to hopefully inspire new editors towards consistency, brevity and good basics. I don’t expect to change experienced editors. Because my CM and I expect certain things, knowing what the other editor is like prepares me for the extra hours it will take per drama to fix comma splices, unnecessary breaks, etc.
I use breaks more sparingly than anyone, but I strongly believe in separating all explanation notes from the rest of the dialogue by putting them on a separate line and in italics. So that there can be no misunderstanding that the character is saying those things. Also, some viewers may have the choice of not reading them if they don’t have the time or interest.
I know that it’s an issue with mobile devices, but it’s not as if there is such a note on every scene - except for medical dramas. Moreover, there are frequent subs with three lines that are not notes.
I’m not nitpicking, you are of course free to make your own guidelines as I have made mine and others have made theirs.
I’m just replying for the OP to see that there are some questions which are a matter of preference, and we should all follow the preferences of the Chief Editor.
For instance
I write “all right” on the dramas where I’m Chief Editor, but “alright” in those where cgwm808 is Chief Editor. I know she likes it better because I’ve studied her own writing.
I never put OK or ok but always “okay” written fully. And
I never put “okay” or “yeah” in the mouths of Asian people over 50, or young people talking to elderly people or superiors. I find it does not reflect their generation, or the respectful language with honorifics that young people use for elders in Asian countries. I keep it for young or youngish people, especially friends, talking among themselves. We have very few ways of reflecting the subtle but very precise nuances of respectful/non respectful language in Asian culture, so the few that we have, we should use to full advantage to help the viewer understand the hierarchy of relationships.
There are a few cases where this is necessary, though. Rhetorical questions and quote questions.
For instance, one character says:
“I’m happy about this”
And the other one, in disbelief:
“You’re happy? How can you be happy, in this situation?”
It’s not a real question, he’s not really curious to know whether the other is happy or not. It’s a quote of what the other person said, with a tone of utter surprise and/or indignation.
I respectfully disagree with that. Why add innumerable more edits for such a trivial reason? Finding the precise spot with your pointer to add punctuation marks, spaces and such is fussy. And why should subbers be patronized and coddled like children who don’t deserve to know? I’ve told some Ko-En subbers about this, a couple have written back “Oh, is it? I didn’t know, thanks for telling me”. And from then on they have changed to using three periods (most of the time . It’s not bad or useless to them to know the rules of English writing either.
re: “All right” vs. “Alright” When I first started subbing and editing on viki in 2010, “Alright” was generally not acceptable in written English and I would dutifully change the word to the phrase “All right.” However, language is a living thing and now, “alright” from frequent use by “people who ought to know better” is growing in acceptance, so I usually leave it alone. For formal writing in the US, it’s still not all right to write “alright.” But drama/movie subtitles are NOT Ph.D. dissertations.
Speaking as someone who has been invited to be chief editor for approximately 230 Kdramas and about 30 K movies, I have always acted with the philosophy that for Kdramas, the Korean to English subtitler is the queen. Just as on C-dramas, the Chinese (Mandarin/ sometimes Cantonese) to English subtitler is queen. Without these subtitlers, there would be no subtitles, good, bad, or indifferent in any language at viki. Therefore, among all contributors at viki, the competent subber from a source language to English deserves to be “coddled” and treated with deference and respect. I think this attitude of appreciation and respect is a major reason why I am usually able to recruit competent subtitlers to work with me.
I am not here to teach subbers but am here to learn and work with them. I have had subbers who subbed the content very accurately but weren’t great at punctuation. My attitude is full speed ahead. I am here to edit, not to teach English 101. My primary emphasis is content over form. First, to the extent I understand Korean and am following the plot, do I understand the subtitle, and second, will the other language subbers understand the subtitle? Everything else is the cherry on top.
This attitude it not because I am incapable of looking up appropriate rules or in applying them. In a prior life, I taught report writing. As an attorney, I’ve written hundred of legal briefs for all court levels in the US. If, over time, I find I need to edit a certain subber’s work less often, I am happy.
I have worked with some subbers who are not confident with their English but have excellent hearing and transcription skills. Should I give feedback that the sub they wrote was not punctuated properly or didn’t have the correct number of dots in the ellipsis? No way.
I agree that they are precious and should be respected, but I don’t think that politely giving them pointers on English is disrespecting or insulting them, or demanding that they write “PhD dissertations”.
I would never take the trouble to write about an occasional mistake, I just do it if a person does repeatedly something.
I always listen to things others have to say, I’m glad that I can learn new things every day and I’ve learned a lot on Viki (and much of it from you!). If nobody enlightened me about things, I would be poorer in knowledge. That’s my attitude -of course I know that not everybody thinks like that. But I treat others as I want to be treated, checking my writing again and again, trying to read it from the point of view of the one who will receive it. And most of the time (not always) the feedback has been positive.
A comma may correctly follow “but” if but is being used as an “interrupter” https://wordagents.com/comma-before-or-after-but/ Similarly, the “rule” that an ellipsis must be followed by a space is a matter of preference and not a universal English punctuation rule.
“Most translators use superfluous words and it’s our job to make the subtitle fit the timing. Many words are repetitious and redundant in a segment” If the editor is not familiar with the source language, how does the editor know what is superfluous, repetitious and redundant? If the editor does not have a working knowledge of the source language, how is a subtitle improved through deletion of a word the subber who is familiar with both English and Korean thought should be in the subtitle?
A lost child is called. Mother says “Joon Soo! Joon Soo! Joon Soo!” The viewer hears the name being called three times. Does the editor edit it down to “Joon Soo!” because the other two times are redundant and repetitious? The child is lost and the mother says very rapidly, “Did you look everywhere? Did you look everywhere possible in the neighborhood? " The viewer doesn’t know Korean but hears two sentences. Does the editor delete the first question as superfluous since the content is included in the second sentence? Sure the content has been translated but what about the excitement and intensity of expression?
What I have found when two sentences can be heard in a segment but only one sentence is subtitled is that a bright other language moderator invariably writes to me and says “I don’t know what is being said at 10.5 but I clearly hear two sentences. Could you make sure that the subber didn’t skip a sentence?” If one sentence is followed by a paraphrase of the sentence, consider what the director and scriptwriter meant to convey? Don’t people who are very excited or who wish to emphasize something tend to repeat what they are saying. If you are talking to someone and you want to make sure the person understands what you are saying, don’t you sometimes paraphrase the same information?” Does editing one sentence out improve the subtitle?
You’re happy! How can you be happy in this situation?
I think this would solve the utter surprise and indignation.
Sometimes the actor simply repeats what the other said with raised intonation. If it’s too difficult or insufficient time is allotted to fit a proper question, it’s acceptable to make it a statement with a period.
I believe that every single person who volunteers on a project is important! Without segmenters, there would be no translators subbing anything! Yet when I ask the head segmenter to fix a segment, the response is, “I’m here to help,” or “I’m happy to help.” Good subbers, and they have all been good in my opinion, do not queen it over anyone. When the CM doesn’t expect special treatment, why should any volunteer expect it?
Team spirit is what’s important! Every person makes a community! I wouldn’t want to teach new editors to kowtow to translators but to respect them, just as new editors deserve respect. Thank you, everyone, for all you do.
Still, it is not a statement. The speaker would still say it in an interrogative tone.
Let’s not forget we’re talking about spoken language here, where the rules are more loose than in written language.
In Finnish this would be impossible cause they don’t have interrogative tones and in case there’s no question word, they attach particles to the first word of the sentence to make clear it’s a question. In English, Dutch and many other languages, however, we have an extra way to show that what we’re saying is a question (or something we’re trying to verify) and that is the tone in which we say it, which, when we would write it down, would logically be shown by a question mark.
Many times I encountered statements where the translator accidentally added a question mark when it was a statement. It was not the case of repeating what the other person said and clearly not a question. Example: I just arrived? Who in their right mind doesn’t know they just arrived? It’s obviously a statement.
Here’s another example:
You’re going to town.
I’m not going to town? Obviously, an exclamation mark is intended as the person’s adamant refusal, but the translator made a mistake.
I remember many such mistakes I encountered as a viewer.
What to do with this example: Is that…?
Some editors feel this is acceptable.
If it’s meant to break off before the question is actually formed, I leave out the question mark because the question was never formed. If the question is fully formed, I only use a question mark, and drop the ellipsis.
Here’s another example that can stump an editor: You are?
We all talk like that. I know I do to my son’s many friends that he brings to visit, and for the life of me, I can’t remember his/her name. Sometimes, twenty or thirty of them arrive on a long weekend, on a break from the big city. But in proper English, I would say, “Please remind me of your name” or “What is your name?” Let’s not forget that English editing requires proper English.
If I’m absolutely certain it is a question, but using questioning word order is too difficult, I found the easiest solution is to simply add “right?” at the end of the question. I often see “right?” added without the comma preceding so we must edit it.
In communication, we often repeat what the other person says, but it’s not a question.
Example:
I had a terrible situation at work today.
You had a terrible situation at work today. This is spoken with intonation which could be misconstrued as a question. Proper communication would not be a question, and if a question is used, it discounts the other person’s feelings. This is part of mirroring which all good communicators do instinctively. I try to take everything into account because I have read so many reviews and comments putting down a show. Sometimes, there’s nothing wrong with the writer, director or actors, but a lack of thoughtfulness on the part of the editor. I see some teams write, “Carefully crafted by ______ Team” yet some subs make no sense. That isn’t always the screenwriter’s fault.
Some reviews are written by people that make me wonder if they actually watched the show. They claim things occurred in the show which didn’t happen. Then I wonder if the subs were too long for the timing, and whizzed by so fast that the viewer didn’t read the subs and remains confused. If there’s an occasional long sub, I use the pause button to read it. The drama I just started watching now is continually very long subs so I gave up with the pause button. As a viewer, it affects my enjoyment when I can’t fully read the subs.
Yes, it’s annoying. I’m used to subtitles, since my country doesn’t use dubbing (except in shows for children), but most programs on tv are in English (or occasionally German, French, whatever), so I’m not entirely dependant on the subtitles. But of the Asian languages I don’t understand enough to follow the story, so very long subtitles or subtitles that just fly off the screen the minute they land there, can drive me crazy.
Contact the English moderator or channel manager of the channel you’re interested. If you’ve the new viki layout, click on Subtitle Team. Everyone is listed there.
I don’t have a Korean drama that’s on-air right now, but I’ve a Chinese one. If you’re interested in translating from English into Korean/hangul, I can add you in My Girl. I believe The Flower of Evil (Lee Joon Gi) need Korean to English subbers.
My Girl: https://www.viki.com/tv/37226c-my-girl
If you want to help, send me a message at https://www.viki.com/users/lazarini/overview
signature, must be a coincidence!
I was expecting it to be a Garfield verb. Eg. I’m going to ‘sofalize’ for the rest of the afternoon while watching TV.
