Viki

[Viki Community Team] French Machine Translations


#87

In my experience, the CM problems, the irresponsible subber/segger/designer/coffee maker problems are 95% due to the system in place, which values quantity over quality. In my opinion, that is.

  • Supposedly, CMs are hoarding projects and never finish them because they are irresponsible people. Also, they have no way to bootleg subs to TV channels nor they just want to bypass regional and other restrictions by becoming CMs, thinking that nobody is expecting subtitles after the first week of airing, anyway.

  • Supposedly, english subbers can start working on live dramas immediately and they have plenty of skilled people to do the editing right after.

  • Supposedly, after the english subs are done (and magically edited, polished and finalized), all other subs are good to go and should be complete really fast. Viewers are happy with a dialogue’s keywords, no need to spend an hour on an episode.

  • Supposedly, CMs and mods are responsible for their team’s “product” and they have the means to evaluate it. Imagine what would happen if a bot appeared in the… Oh, wait…!

  • Supposedly, Viki monitors quality and punishes any low standard subtitles.

  • Supposedly, volunteers should contact a team before they can touch the sub/seg tools they find in various viki webpages.

  • Supposedly, there are so many inactive/long-dead channels that nobody should have a problem completing their 500 subs, without destroying the hard work of others or begging to be in a team.

  • Supposedly, Viki makes sure each of those 500, QC-worthy subs are real subs before they hand out QC statuses.

If you look at the problem this way, it makes sense to ask for ratings, public or not. However, all of my “supposedl-ies” have an explanation and it is 95% Viki’s poorly implemented procedures and only 5% contributor dramaqueening.

If those procedures were re-designed, the contributing community would most probably self-regulate, without ratings other than some fun motivational ones they seem to enjoy.

I agree. Especially after having read some contributors’ input over the years. * rolleye *


#88

My opinion here is not for debate or arguing with anyone. If you don’t agree with what I write here just state your opinion without criticizing my opinion or anyone else’s opinion. The goal here is to give positive feedbacks that can benefit everyone, especially this site which we all care for. Arguing gets us nowhere.

I noticed that the suggestion tool (bot) in Spanish, certain words in English can affect the Spanish translation given as a suggestion. The subber here whom I know just clicks the FILL button, and won’t check the subtitle to see if it’s right or not, failed to see that the spanish translation was wrong in this sentence.

***I’m NOT criticizing the English sub in HDL since there was nothing wrong there.
(I saw a lot of Spanish translation that were really bad in this drama bc the bot tends to do a literal translation bc it can not ‘‘see’’ the sentence as a whole, and ends up creating a mess.

Episode 14 minute 23:12

Entonces, ¿tiene la intención de dejar que los dos se cepillan, (the english sub: Then, you intend just let the two of you brush by)

I would have love, if the English subber have used the word ‘‘pass by’’ instead of ‘‘brush by’’

the bot added in Spanish the word cepillan (brush ‘‘teeth’’ ‘‘hair’’ etc… )

The bot cannot ‘‘see’’ that the phrase is used as pass by not brush teeth, hair, etc…
So we have an incorrect Spanish translation still in the drama.

The Korean to English translator, has no need to worry about if the suggestion tool (bot) will translate in Spanish correctly with the words they use in their sentence but it will be nice if it takes into consideration how the word might affect the other language (it will also serve as a learning process of another language).

Now, as we see its many flaws and people are giving feedback, are they really going to put 100% effort to resolve this problem in the bot or are they leaving these ridiculous spanish translations in the dramas? Not wise to do, you might lose viewers bc of the so many bad subs.

Staffers might say: It’s really the subbers fault. Not 100% she is partially at fault but there is the biggest FAULT that falls when we fail to work as a team like we should.

The English translation in my opinion with this bot system needs to stop using so many contractions (the bot can not translate words with contraction correctly).

They need to simplify the sentence unless it’s a historical drama. No bot/vikibot/tool suggestion (whichever way you want to call it), should ever touch this historical dramas. I always remember when I was watching Mr. Sunshine a drama (from the 1800’s) on NTFX I saw the most ridiculous translations in that drama, and it was a total disrespect to such a wonderful drama.

I believe it’s time to really work as a team, and we need to communicate what the bot is translating wrong in our language. They need to listen to our feedback on what’s wrong and where it was wrong.

*The subbers need to have GOOD knowledge of the language, and foremost grammar rules usage.
We can no longer accept subbers just bc they are fast/Quantity of Subs (faster subs) doesn’t guarantee viewers/us the Quality needed in them.

I have worked in dramas lately that the English translation was so bad, I had to leave segments in blank bc I couldn’t figure a way to translate the absurdity in English (incredibly I’m talking about recent on air dramas).

Who do we blame more?
Subber: 25%
Moderator: 25%
Editor; 25%
bot; 25%

The bot has its advantage but also disadvantage. It may be a bit faster to work with but is not good enough in the translation department. If we can correct that then it will be very beneficial to keep paying subscriber satisfied and not begging for subs. in the dramas.

Subbers need to be proficient enough in the language they are translating and MUST revise/check their subs before adding them in the drama whether using the bot system or not).

Moderators must not take so many dramas that they won’t have time to keep their subbers in check. They need to make sure editors are added in the drama. my personal opinion, moderator should not take the task to edit the drama.

Editor: I pity those the most, but sadly not every team has one editor that makes sure to edit the incorrect subtitles in the drama (from beginning to end) Not first and second episode as I have seen is done in many dramas.
The bulk of the responsibility falls in the editors so I feel it should be mandatory to have at least 2 editors for every language, that will only do that; edit the work fully not halfway. I don’t think Moderators can handle to also be editors bc is too much work to do.

The moderators should do the work of the moderator assign subbers, editors, give go’s, assign parts, etc…The moderator should not be the editor in the drama bc it will be get to overwhelmed with the load of work, and won’t be able to do so much if it has other projects to complete.

BUT most importantly we can not continue the vicious cycle of competing against each other. We need to work together as a whole team, so no dominoes fall, making the whole thing crumble.
Every language, everyone in togetherness, and also opening doors to other new subbers/segmenters/CM/Moderators etc… with skills. Not saying; ‘‘I only work with my group/team’’ like so many do in here.

Now with this ‘‘bot system’’ many things will change for the better, faster subtitles in the dramas, a plus. We can correct the flaws it has, and in the process make Rakutenviki the number one in the hearts (and pockets) of the viewers/paying subscribers.

I have to admit I am not against the bot system 100%. I have been waiting for something to be implemented here that could provide faster subs in the dramas. I am against the fact that is giving the viewers bad subtitles, and nothing is done (so far) to correct this issue, and now they are doing it for all language

But to me is a disrespect to give paying viewers bad subtitles bc, what good is for the viewers to have faster subs; English (Spanish, French, Portuguese etc…) 100%, and they can’t enjoy it bc the subtitles in the dramas makes no sense?

This is my opinion: agree or not agreeing with me, is not the intention here. You/Others may have other viewpoints/feedbacks about this, but just add your opinion/feedback in the first person bc it will not benefit anyone arguing between us. Let’s start working as a team. Please.


#89

To do that, they would need to know at least the basics of the other language.
Also, they would need to sacrifice accuracy in their own set of subs while only guessing the results for other languages, that are not necessarily latin.

We certainly can, wasting time to fix something we could have written ourselves, correctly, the first time. Also, correcting a bad translation is harder than producing the original one, because our mind gets briefly confused after seeing the familiar (but inaccurate) terms and it has to reprocess the original meaning.


#90

@christina_

Most of us have worked here for years and know the basic of the other language (in my case Korean/English/Spanish) The 3 main language that has (in my opinion) the most viewers/paying subscribers.
I feel there is no sacrifice in the accuracy of their own subtitles. There is more work involved that in the long wrong will benefit all of us, as we learn another language in the process. Why not? I love that!

Let me give you an example: I told a wonderful editor about a sub I felt used too many words in the sentence (the contraction affected the spanish sub too). She very politely explained to me why she left the subtitle the way it was (that affected the spanish translation bc it was done by the bot and a subber that know knows very little English).

The next thing I told her was why the sub wasn’t simplify since the actress had said so little/few words in the scene, but the sentence had an excess of words, unnecessary contraction, and a subtitle with less words would mean the same thing. She went ahead and fixed it and it not only sounds better, I know the bot spanish suggestion will be better, too (so far in the drama it still has the wrong spanish sub).

I have noticed the contracted words are not detected/recognized by the bot/suggestion tool and is giving a wrong translation in Spanish in this case ( contractions affect the past/present tense too).

I understand your anger with the bot system, and I respect Your opinion. Editing is a pain in the ass I have done editing work, too. But if we can work out the flaws the bot has, we can provide faster subtitles in the dramas for the viewers, and have more dramas available here from all over the world.

I believe the bot/suggestion tool was not created to get rid of the volunteers here at viki but to be able to supply the demand to have more dramas here at the site and attract more paying subscribers (can we blame them?)

I personally would love to work and learn in the process French, German, Hindu, Tagalog, Taiwanese, working every part of the world dramas. I think it would be so nice…What I love the most from this would be to be able to work with others as a team no matter what language or part of the world the drama is from.


#91

We do talk about these things among ourselves, don’t we? We ask each other opinions about same language moderators. I know I’ve been asked and I have asked those I trust. We all have a personal list of “no-no” people.
Yes, it’s not a perfect system, and it’s still based very much on personal opinion, just like the public ratings would be. But instead of a simple number, when we explain why a person is not good, we usually give examples, tell the story of our past experience with that person - there’s more interaction.
When they do bad things we should report them and, most importantly, Viki should do something about it. Which it most often doesn’t.
When I reported to Viki an inactive CM for a channel, and asked them for the position, they first wrote to her, she said “yes, yes, I’m getting to it”, then another six months passed, with zero activity on the channel, then I wrote to Viki again, I got a reply saying “You two find a solution between you”!!! After another six months or so they finally gave me the channel. It took a tremendous amount of time. They don’t want to offend long-time volunteers who might leave Viki in anger.

Monitoring the community more closely would probably need more staff, and it would be costly for them. But it’s necessary. Now it’s only two-three people doing all the job. How can we expect them to take care the numerous instances?
A hoarder-checker would be a full-time job.

If the user Contributions page were better organized, it would be much easier to spot hoarders.
Put columns:

  • added to the team date
  • first worked on (with an option of Nul, if the person hasn’t touched the episode),
  • last worked on,
  • language (of the particular user)
  • subtitle/segment completion %
  • released to All Languages (yes-no)

And give the possibility to sort by each column (also a choice between decreasing and increasing order). So that we can sort the projects to see first the older ones and see their completion. Or the ones where the completion is less and see how many they are. Or the ones the user hasn’t even touched.
Of course moderators don’t always do subtitles nor always double as editors, so their sub count may be zero; however, they are responsible for the subbers doing the job, that’s why the completion percentage is important.
In case of CMs which language shall you choose? Let’s say the English. Although the CM is also responsible for all the other teams, at least if the English is complete AND released (thus presumably edited), you can say the most important part of her/his job is done.


#92

The ‘explore’ page has a total of 723 shows (I remember they used to be thousands, but anyway). I guess most of the 723 have been there for years. It would shock me if Viki needed extra staff to check with a pace of 1 (one! ) show/day during its 5+ years of existence.

Well…I wouldn’t bet my first-born on it.

Good idea. With minimal cost for Viki, I wonder why it isn’t in place already.


#93

Did you use any filter, as for me it says 2000!


#94

But I just found out if I only chose tv content, it still says 2000!
If I chose movies it says 512, is it buggy, for “new” the oldest channels appear not at the last pages. What is it?


#95

Not that I know of. I chose “all” in every category and when I saw 723 I double-checked! A new Viki user would pick those options, right? So they would only se 723! What did I filter out?

Clipboard01

As I’ve been away for a while, I thought they removed the old fan channels and that’s why I can’t see thousands.Anyway, 2000, checking 1 per day, is still feasible to monitor, isn’t it?


#96

I want to say thank you because trying to build something on my idea (I’d prefer to say “building on an idea”) or improving it is the basis of the creation process. And it’s beautiful and it’s what makes us advance in finding a solution.

Each scientist uses other findings to try and make new experiences. It’s a continuous process. We are bound to find weird results, to find contradictions to our original idea and to make mistakes that are contributions to create the system that would possibly work in our environment.
I know no child who knew how to walk alone without falling on the ground. We learn from each contribution, from each fall, from each step to be finally able to walk.

I found someone challenging ideas without feeling judged personally, without judging others personally while thinking. And I’m I’m grateful.
It’s the beginning of collaboration.

I don’t know what could be made to answer this question and that’s why we’re brainstorming, challenging ideas and hearing, receiving, analyzing ideas. I can auto-challenge my own ideas, but I know the limits of this. I need feedback, challenging, suggestions, it’s what thinking and creating is all about.
It evolutes.

It could be something AI could help volunteers with: building and suggesting many systems and we, humans, pick the system that is still ethically fine with us.


#97

I don’t know about the others, but I have 8 unfinished projests with very few segments simply because I did NSSA training…
Plus as there are few of us translating to my language, I am usuallly moderator and translator at the same time, have no language team members. I don’t need to communicate with CM except when I apply for the project.
What rate will I get then?


#98

@idbarka
In my opinion you will be rated as excellent a great committed volunteer. Here you are struggling with 8 projects little to no help and a CM who is suppose to be helping you to get segmenters, moderators, subbers is doing absolutely nothing for you?

You say here that the only communication here you had with the CM was when you applied for the project, and she hasn’t even try reach out to you? She deserves a big F. The CM gets the F you get the A.

I worked with CM tishafi (excellent human being) and all my needs were supply by her and she even did the most segmenting herself she deserves an A+ in my book.

This is when I feel the suggestion tool is an asset to the site, and a friend to those in need bc segments will be done, subs added (good or bad) and that’s when the Editors that do their job right, will get an A.

I don’t know why you have 8 projects in your hand and not receiving help but if there’s anything I can do count me in. I am not an NSSA graduate but have done segments since every project requires NSSA graduate I only work/do segments on old or Spanish dramas.

The grading is irrelevant now since the bot will take over soon. Like i said before one hand washes the other. We share what we know and work as a team no matter what language or project it is and we will be able to have many dramas available to be viewed here and less stressed out volunteers. Shame on that CM that has not extended her hand to you even if you have not communicated with her, she very well knows what are her duties as a Cm in dramas etc…GOOD LUCK.

Don’t forget, If I can help you in anything (I hope I can) don’t hesitate to contact me.


#99

Come to think of it, are those two clicks worth the same on Viki as my personally crafted and sometimes several times edited sentence?? I don’t know why I didn’t think of that until now.

I think VikiBot suggestions should be valued differently, as half a contribution or something. Definitely not as whole sub. Maybe 5 fill-ins without any change should count as one standard manual contribution.

Ultimately GT might have a better performance than VikiBot. So, if we look down on people for using GT because they didn’t translate the sentence themselves, why are we valuing the application of the VikiBot suggestion equal as a human translation?

This is actually nonsense, when you think about it a bit!

Yes, we do… :pensive:

But I feel the punishment system (VikiPolice) is completely ineffective. I love transparency. What we have atm is a mini society which talks behind each others’ backs, sometimes with good intentions, sometimes not, whether it is to try to push the project through or nepotisticaly protect your buddy.

Your second part of the suggestion is more-less what I suggested as Volunteer Statistics. It’s objective and easily calculable. That is if Viki would allocate some of it’s server function for it. Whenever there is a marathon, we have to apply by stating the initial number of contributions. This looks to me as if they can’t do basic deduction B-A for their whole volunteer database.

Current contribution page is more faulty than correct. It should show the last time I contributed something to the project. But, instead, it shows the first time I contributed to it (so the time I started it). Next, every time the licence on a show changes, whether it gets revoked or it comes back (yes, that has also happened, that the licence came back), again it says I contributed to the project recently, at the time of the licence switch. So, I wouldn’t count that the platform used to make contribution pages (which is also the platform for Viki) is the best option for user statistics. That’s why, should they try to really make the Marketplace, when choosing the platform to build Marketplace with, they could also have in mind Volunteer Statistics.

Don’t the two of you live in different countries?

It says 2.000 titles in total for me as well, but the fact that this number is so round makes me think it’s a bit false. True number could be 1989 or 2056.


#100

Ohh don’t worry about that. I even have some projects I didn’t even work on because of a Viki bug Viki still didn’t fix because according to them it isn’t a bug…


#101

Hello everyone, viki contacted some of us for participate in a videocall to share our suggestions and recommendations, to express ourselves. I really thank you all for your involvement. We can stop this strike (action) and move on to communication now.

If some of you want to participate in this videocall, do not hesitate to send me a message. It will be certainly on Friday 27th September at 11 AM PDT. (https://www.viki.com/users/anna79_9/overview)

Send me a message in the upcoming some hours, please.


#102

:heart:

I’ve been thinking a bit yesterday night why do I find the idea of user grade so clear cut, while you and others find it troubling. Perhaps you had much more negative experiences on Viki than I did, so you have a feeling there is more trolls out there to harm us.

But, perhaps it is also that my job, my projects culminate with an article which is peer reviewed. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, briefly:

  1. you do research on a project
  2. you write a scientific paper with evidence and conclusions
  3. you submit it to a scientific journal
  4. the journal sends it to other scientists in the world, usually in your field who return your article sometimes saying it’s not good enough for publishing at all, and sometimes they say you have to do more experiments to be able to make your conclusion.
  5. you get peer-reviewers’ comments back, swear at them internally and then read them once again and try to improve your article
  6. you submit the improved version to the same journal and cross your fingers it gets approved for publishing.

Ultimately you are thankful to your tough reviewers because your baby, your project of sometimes sever years, has resulted in something more advanced and substantial than it was when you first submitted it to the journal.

So, although you get angry and frustrated because of all the comments, ultimately you know it’s for your own good. This type of (mostly) honest assessment I had in mind when thinking about users grading other users.

Viki’s own reality is different I know this. But I would like to skip the talks behind ones’ backs and just have it somehow indicated next to the profile pick where one could conclude: “Okay, this user is a great translator, but lousy in communication with others. Let’s put her on this movie project which she could easily finish on her own. And maybe that on-going high-profile drama project is not the right place for her after all, since it contains a lot of team communication.”

Or: “This user seems to be great at teaching new volunteers and getting them started. Because it seems most of the newbies she worked with have continued translating/editing. So, it’s okay if she has a team with more than one newbie and that she finishes the project a bit later.”

These are the kinds of assessments I would like people to make. Not “Omg… she has 2.4/5 average. I’m not giving her the mod position.”


#103

Hi, dear.

Are you sure it’s an open call, that anyone interested could participate? I figure they sent PMs to those they wanted to talk to…


#104

We can invite some people if we want, so… It’s an open call, but not 50 persons, of course. ^^


#105

Hahaha! I would rate crapily for the same reasons as yourself. Too many unifinshed projects. In my case I couldn’t blame anyone but myself, for giving up translating something in Croatian which has already been translated either to Serbian (latin), Bosnian, Serbo-Croatian etc. I could clean up my house though - ask the mods to revoke my Moderator positions on those projects. But even after this I would “score” low.

I also translate a lot on my own. Volunteers in my language are rare, while the demand is high. Your CM could rate your progress, for example. If it takes me more than a year to translate a movie (guilty of it personally, that’s why I mention it), then I am not a good moderator after all.

I am also one of those OL mods who is not afraid to communicate with an English team (Editors) or the CM when I find something fishy in the English language. Or in the segments. Good OLs will be able to spot blatant mistakes and will have the will to report them back to the CM, who will in turn then activate the right team members to fix the error.


#106

Guilty as well! :wink: Sometimes I think it’s strange, because so many teams already finished translating before me, but most of the time we clear a misunderstanding or a fault. Even as a viewer I do that if I see a faulty sub, I will write to the team, editor … Sometimes I think they read my name like, NO not her again. Once someone made a subtitle about necklace making it 24 kg, instead of 24 karats.

Sometimes I think it is a loss we no longer can see the actual subtitler, because in earlier years I would have sent them a personal “Thank You”. Most of them were happy to receive a PM like that, since normally you do not get a lot of recognition by the audience. In these days you will not look at comments any way, if you can avoid it. And it was a way for me to “recruit” subbers later on. I would have noted their names and when I started a project I contacted them and asked if they wanted to join. But now, you can’t tell anymore, and we all know how well the volunteer-finder works for us.

I just realize today, why the grading topic gave me goosebumps … Remember the one-liner project of Viki. A sentence by sentence without context, the outcome was not too far from the bot-translations with the problems alike. The bot would need an AI next to him telling it, that’s an ahjumma talking to a little boy and next is the CEO shouting at the ahjumma. Thinking back about what happened here at Viki I suddenly feel like a halmae “I have lived too long …”