Viki's Contributor Management Chaos

Contributing
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When I was in game support and working in the government office, I had to sign that I would never ever disclose any names and stuff like that. Hence, I do not understand these mistakes at all. :no_good_woman:
Anyway, about the case mentioned below, I received PMs from some alternate account months ago criticizing them.

However, there were recent cases where Viki enforced the rule mentioned above and actually punished a contributor for being ALM while moderating another language on projects and warned the CMs that they may not receive any more projects from now on. However, some specific matters aren’t mentioned (e.g. projects they distributed way before the release like for example https://www.viki.com/tv/38150c-the-trust or the lately finally released “Silence of the Monster”.

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Now, Viki told another contributor by PM that it’s not permitted to add subtitlers to a project unless there’s a moderator for said language (or they can be added as moderator - which requires 3,000 subtitles in said language).

This usually concerns rare languages and newbies who start in projects that are free to access. Are we supposed to kick them now? Will we now be punished for something that’s been like that for ages? Where should we get active moderators for very rare languages? :thinking: It has never been announced anywhere that you’re required to be a moderator if you’re on your own (and don’t have the 3,000 subtitles in a language).

from a subtitling operation perspective, we need to guard the quality of all languages.

How can Viki even ensure the quality of rare languages? Until today, that X0,000 subtitler contributor that took subtitles from others websites and translated into 4 languages using a translator is running around freely as a moderator and even CM. Despite being reported. Is this your definition of “quality assurance”? It somewhat differs from mine.

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They have the time to chase the smaller contributors or people with more projects, but no time for answering any reports connected to abusers in the community.
Ha, love it

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Please, remind me… what was Viki’s slogan again? :roll_eyes:

breaking down the language barriers that stand between great entertainment and its fans

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I think that’s a wonderful idea! If we allow anyone to go in and start subtitling in ‘‘rare languages’’ we are running the risk to welcome a skillful abuser that has mastered the art of faking he/she knows a language, and have ‘‘fake’’ contribution counts in their ‘‘fake’’ name in their fake profile page. We still have *abusers here * now with other names and profiles (since is not only ONE person doing this). I don’t understand why this problem has not been’’ eradicated’’ and continues to go on as I write these words, but I no longer care anymore either bc the ones that should be worrying about this going on here, is the ones investing their money on this site.

It makes sense they are not all eager on rare languages to be… ‘’ breaking down the language barriers that stand between great entertainment and its fans.’’ After all, how many paying subscribers will they have on these rare OL? None or even not much of course. You know my favorite saying ‘‘money talks’’

GT quote
money has a strong influence on people’s actions and decisions

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That happens anyway. Just the fact that someone can be added as a moderator doesn’t automatically mean that said person is a great, non-abusive contributor. After all, QC status is solely based on quantity.

If that is the case, then Viki lost all its initial ideals. You might be right, though, looking at the fact that so many movies these days can be subbed in only a handful of languages (though that might be the decision of the content provider).
Well, if Viki is really going to kick out all the less popular languages, then I’m not so sure if I will stay, not because I wouldn’t have anything left to do here, but because I wouldn’t want to support a company with dollar signs in its eyes that sacrifices anything to load its bank account. After all, we are still unpaid. Isn’t volunteering something you do for the greater good? What greater good would be left if the majority of languages would be dropped and the sole purpose of our work here would be filling Viki’s wallet?

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@mirjam_465

I was just referring to rare languages only I don’t consider your language rare since we have a vast group of good quality volunteers with satisfied viewers. I have never read (not even one) comment that the DUTCH translations in dramas/movies/shows are wrong in any way, shape or form.

I have to be Honest, and you know me, and my puertorican sayings: ‘‘no tengo pelos en la lengua’’ translated it means; I say what I feel bc where I’m from, there is so much freedom of speech that you can voice your opinion without having to feel you offended anyone in any which way because that wasn’t my intention at all. But going back to the subject in question, some subbers are translating lately into a language that I didn’t even know existed lol (I’m talking about other sites too not only here at this site).

Here on this site we have groups of non paid volunteers so there is no loss for them, but the other (sites) I’m talking about, they have paid subbers and sometimes I question if that’s such a good move bc in order to make profits we need to follow the rule of supply and demand in translation. I found this great article on that and want to share it with all of you, but will use hide details to be on the safe side and not be breaking any rules or regulations

Summary

https://www.trustedtranslations.com/blog/supply-and-demand-in-translation

Supply and Demand in Translation

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Up to now we have seen different ways or options for determining the total cost of a translation, but now I would like to draw attention to the question of why some rates are higher when considering not only the language pair in question, but also the country in which the translation project will be presented.

This means that translation is also subject to the law of supply and demand and that there is no single absolute rate for a specific pair of languages, and this is true for a reason.

Let’s look at one example. Spanish is spoken in over 20 countries and is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world. As a result, there are many language professionals in Spanish who offer their services; there are still questions that need to be answered, however. If a client needs to translate a project into Spanish, the first question from the agency will be: “Which version of Spanish will it be?” This is in reference to the differences between the Spanish spoken in Spain, in Central America, or in South America that are apparent to those who work with these different regions. Then, after it receives the final answer from the client, the agencies assigns the rates for the project, and they can vary considerably. The reason for this is simple: if the project’s audience is Spanish, the cost will be much higher since, as we all know, the quality of life in Europe is quite different than that of Latin America, which means that the rates that translators in Spain are higher than those offered by the professionals in the other continent.

We could also cite the example of relatively small countries, such as Norway, whose official language is Norwegian, where the offer of translators in this language is much smaller when compared with the countries I mentioned earlier and where the quality of life is also high, which leads to high rates.

In addition, something that can also be an aspect of working with small countries, regardless of their quality of life, is the issue of minority languages, since translators working with those languages know that there are not many qualified professionals to preform the work and as a result can place higher prices on their services.

This is the thinking that is applied when generating costs for a translation project. Several factors have to be considered, related to the factors of the target country where the translation will be presented, including the quality of life of said country, which influences the availability and cost for the translation professionals for certain languages.

(Spanish version: https://www.trustedtranslations.com/oferta-y-demanda-en-la-traduccion-2010-06-25.html)

mirjam_465
Well, if Viki is really going to kick out all the less popular languages, then I’m not so sure if I will stay, not because I wouldn’t have anything left to do here, but because I wouldn’t want to support a company with dollar signs in its eyes

I don’t think @RakutenViki will want to lose such a devoted volunteer like you (and many others) because it will be their loss when it comes to money, and they are not that clueless either. The reason of them dropping some language is mainly based on the fact that they do have to cut corners if they want to survive during this difficult economic situation going around in the world.

Personally, when I go food shopping I sometimes cry when I see these high prices, and I realize that one day I won’t even be able to afford paying for this stream sites since I’m not sacrificing a plate of food in the table for me and my kids over watching dramas, movies with English subtitles.

Viki and I, are not against less popular languages to stay put here or anywhere else, we are just trying to float above the water and survive during these economic difficult times we are facing right now (and I hope it doesn’t get worst; as many experts are predicting) :pray::pray::pray::pray::pray:

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whether private or public, the words you use are in use among many of us, along with the topics and expressions of disgust and dismay. the upshot is yes, we’ve mostly stopped applying to run dramas. one reason “the same people” run them may be partly because a good many experienced CMs no longer even try to get a new drama.

it’s part of the continuum of the “viki experience”. mostly, you get used to it and well, over time, stop saying it publicly.

divide and conquer is not merely something armies do, it’s something this website and its overlords have done successfully in way to disguise our disappearance, one by one.

it’s like the word VOLUNTEER. first, the visibility, then the word itself is disappearing…then the actual humans it applied to, as the shadows overcome them and they slip away.

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Talking about economic aspects it makes no sense to stick at unpaid work while everything else costs more.

(Unless someone has both, even now: enough money and time for feeding a profit-oriented company.)

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Personally I applied for CM for quite a few kdrama since I got back on Viki but I was never selected as a CM. I have a feeling Viki sometimes tries to avoid certain conflicts or choses the easy route instead of choosing someone who has been active in the community for years and might be harder to work with for them because they have a stronger opinion on certain things due their experience. As for myself I don’t like the presubbing thing of most Kdrama these days. I recently still took some A&C projects as there are no normal segmenting projects it seems I would like to work on. And the uploading is all over the place aswell. One project is up like 4.30 PM for me while the other seems to upload at the middle of the night. Like 2AM or 3AM. So now I offered help with a Kdrama but since it’s up so late I cannot help out at all. And honestly I rather not have a project that is presubbed and presegged so I’m actually glad that I wasn’t selected as a CM at times.

Many volunteers now also seem to struggle to meet the VikiPass requirements every 6 months due this because most work you do on your projects now is not counted towards your contribution count. So you can work on Viki like crazy and then 5 months later you get a notification from Viki your VikiPass is about to expire because you didn’t volunteer enough. Crazy.

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Yes, for segmenters this is a problem! Doing QC for segments is not counted, and this was maybe okay for fixing a couple of bad segments here and there, but when it’s a whole show, it’s absolutely normal that they wouldn’t be that eager to go to all that trouble for nothing.

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Yes, editing one part in Reborn Rich took me longer then segmenting from scratch because next to simply edit almost every segment I had to combine segments and had to adjust the subs as well to fit the new segment. Maybe I did more then I was supposed to do and did run in some issues including lost subs I was supposed to paste in an other segment. But I think the team somehow found it again so not much damage was done.

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" most CMs are either serial CMs (getting projects almost constantly), or they are absolute newbies who usually mess up in the most basic things." :disappointed_relieved:
Xylune – you are indeed fortunate to get appointed SO OFTEN! I too wonder when the same person, with little or no prior experience in K drama was appointed channel manager of two dramas with an A list cast serially. One or two weeks after the first ended, she got the next one. I didn’t check her prior history on C dramas so don’t know how long her string has lasted.
I have been at viki since June, 2009. The last time I was appointed channel manager of an on-air drama was in July, 2021, 18 months ago. The second to the last time I was appointed channel manager was March, 2019, over two years before. I admit I don’t have an application pending all the time – I have given up on applying for old movies and webdramas. And because I don’t know much about C-drama and J-drama, I don’t apply to manage them and when offered a chief editor position on C drama, I decline because I don’t know enough about either ancient or modern China to do a decent job.
Although my list of projects as a manager is long, the reason is that I have become channel manager of many old projects for which I was originally an editor and/or subber and the original channel manager has become inactive. As I have a vested interest in these old channels, I want to maintain the channel, and be a contact person for viewers who don’t know how to report technical problems and to add more languages to those available on the project.
With respect to the pre-subbing of Korean dramas, many of you know I am very opposed to the practice. For many years viki said it was powered by volunteers. To me a volunteer is someone who is not getting paid and doing a task out of good will. Overtime, viki has come to prioritize the whining of viewers who demand instant gratification.
At first, channel managers were told they could request help in subbing to English. Then, I guess because the requests were not made, viki started to decrease the time in which the paid subbers started to sub after upload. At first it was 24 hours, then 12 hours, then 8 hours. These arbitrary deadlines were decided unilaterally and not regularly communicated to the English team. Even when there was a time deadline, they were often ignored by the paid subber. I believe the subber would be told to start at X o’clock, but sometimes the upload would be twelve or more hours late, so the subber would start immediately after upload.
Also, sometimes there was a % requirement. So the % requirement started at 90% – the subber only came if the episode was not 90% complete within X hours of upload. If the episode was 91% complete, then the paid subber didn’t work on the episode at all. Then the percentage requirement was 95%, so that if we volunteers did 95% in 8 hours, the paid subber didn’t work on the episode at all, and then in the recent past, became 100% which was absurd. Very often an episode would be 97% done because the 3% were made of unnecessary segments, interjections, and unpublished lyrics. So the subber’s contributions would be many “ughs”, “geez” and made up subtitles when the segmenter cut a segment for a blurred sign or thought she heard somehing. My team are always told not to guess but paid subbers are given carte blanche to guess and with their superior hearing and fluency in both Korean and English, they would sub all lyrics and continue to make the same mistake everytime the song was repeated. For example, even though the lyric spoke of a “sad/sorrowful cloud”, the subber subbed “rainy cloud” many many times. The subbers seems to have no interest in assuring technical accuracy in whatever field the drama is place – that is, if it is a medical drama, the sentences should make sense medically.
Now that all K dramas are presubbed, viki has ensured that the pool of competent Korean to English subbers will become a tiny fishpond. With the pass requirement for on air projects, newbies cannot sub on on-air projects. Unless they are able to read and write Hangul, they cannot caption Korean on old projects. Previously active subbers who enjoyed the challenge of subbing are unable to meet the renewal requirements for QC status or leave viki because they can passively watch Kdrama on KWA or NFX. Result – less and less competent subbers at viki.
I also see with the appointment of CMs with little or no K drama experience that they will appoint editors, even translation editors, who have little or no K drama experience. I have seen on several occasions someone whose work I would consider at the 50% level or less (they cannot fully sub an episode due to lack of adequate fluency in either Korean or English or both) have become “Translation Editors” and if you look through their work, you will see they are doing mostly editing sentence format and not focused on meaning at all. I actually looked at the work of a TE who had subbed on one project with me. Only 35% of her subs survived editing by me and my co-editors.
I have also seen on some channels that the other languages are beginning to sub right after upload of the presubbed episode.
I have found that my work as a chief editor did not decline per episode when subs are “professionally” done – the number of edits is the same and in some cases is higher than editing the work of subbers I hand-picked. So say I make 200 corrections for 700 subs in an episode. Now imagine other languages are beginning to sub immediately after upload. Those 200 errors, many of which are incomplete and or inaccurate translations are being translated to other languages. The old IT saying GIGO applies – garbage in, garbage out.
Well, an old timer used to remind me that subs are not a PhD dissertation. But could the English be at least be of first year high school essay quality?

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I am glad you mentioned this. This happened to me recently. On top of that, the CM has no idea what she is doing, and both of the moderators who subbed without permission are newbies.

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Yes, they are just tossed aside by Viki. So rude! I always did prefer Viki’s quality of the English subs above all others but now with the paid subbers it’s all lost.:frowning_face:

There are only losers now… Volunteers are leaving and Viki losing their charm and what they are known for.
But I assume this saves them costs… no idea how but why else would they toss away volunteers?!

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Nowadays, it’s not just OL subbing without permission anymore. We now even have CMs who willingly tell OL to start right after segmenting and who even wonder whether a CS is really necessary.
In the meantime, the CMs who actually know what they are doing get skipped until eternity.

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You’re very right. I also had a project just like that one. The first time I noticed it was because I was looking for a something and saw that OL were already working on the episodes that were not edited. I was very confused and even had to ask if I missed something.
It might have been because it was taking long to finish, but it really makes you feel disappointed. It gets you thinking about whether you’re really necessary, and when you get to editing, at least in my opinion, you don’t feel motivated.

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From a business perspective it’s weird to provide - mainly - paywall content without offering the subtitles right away (and since Netflix has many Asian shows now, Viki needs English subs when releasing an episode. Otherwise the subscribers might cancel their subscription fee for Viki).

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They simply can’t have it both ways, eventually it will end. They parade volunteers when it’s convenient, and hound them privately on projects and replace or supplant them with machine work or garbage from a less careful source. We are in our final times as volunteers - we are erased as the word disappears.

One of my team regulars in translation on C drama was looking for a drama to renew qc - and I couldn’t even point to a drama that is being subbed from scratch for them to join. I’ve stopped bothering to apply for a new drama as there are 70 applications and experienced CMs are passed over. What happened with Kdrama is happening in other places as well, quality is being driven inexorably from the site.

Also, I echo Connie’s comments on quality overall. I find myself watching raw Chinese dramas on NFX of late too…I still dislike their overall stripping of honorifics and reducing subs for speed, so I try to not watch the subbed versions at all any more. The problem is larger than viki when it comes to quality. It’s not likely to improve either, sorry. :frowning: I think the behavior of viki is merely a reflection of a world that binges and gulps down content and moves on - like a juggernaut - seeking more stimulation and really not caring for artisan work, or the labor behind it now. We are relics of an age of quality and care, and we are going to be set entirely aside, the time will come sooner than any of us who have been here for years would like.

Diva

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I apply to lots of things, though. But some “old contributors” seem to receive fewer projects. However, I have no idea to how many projects (and how early) they actually apply. Some that get lots of them apply to about everything. Others only apply to certain things (and they still get them on a regular basis).

Some rules make no sense. English Editors are expected to have a certain amount of subtitles too, but how should they manage if their only language is English?

In fact, Viki may prohibit using translators, but sometimes the results are even better than those of real contributors. The problem rather is them not understanding things (or we especially dislike that they gain contributions without putting in any efforts). Unless Viki wants to push out rare languages anyway (which they could easily do by limiting the languages), there is no point to do it like this in my opinion.
They could do it as they do it with the movies nowadays.

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