We absolutely should, but fair ones.
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Ehm… how are they supposed to know that before it happens?
I’m talking about a person who knows fully well what she is able to do. If I kick puppies, I know fully well that if I ever have my own puppy, I will kick it.
If I get a puppy and it gets rabbies and bites people, how is it relevant to my kicking puppies as a personality trait?
ETA
Well, to make it short, the real trouble with this sort of legal system is that it creates stigma around women’s behavior. This social stigma regulates the real life, not laws. If society treats a baby as an obligation, women will simply go to illegal abortion clinics or will stay with abusive husbands or they will abandon their newborns in dustbins. Just as they do now, because of the stigma, even in “liberal” societies.
The law against abortion is not simply against abortion. It is against other things that have nothing to do with the “unborn life”.
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I think it’s important to draw some kind of line from which we believe that someone starts living. The potential for life doesn’t equal life. This kind of approach would mean that woman should have intercourse every month during ovulation, man shouldn’t masturbate and noone at all should use contraception. Because it all wastes some opportunity for a child to be born.
Then we have to think about where this line is. I personally don’t have any stable opinion on that matter, so if anyone wants to suggest something, I can listen. To me being human is connected to feeling, to thinking, to some sort of conciousness or brain function.
We have cases, in which we let the body of a patient die, because their brain is dead. Other biological functions are intact, they have the human DNA, yet we don’t think of it as a murder or that those people are alive.
In Poland the law was changed, so the abortion is impossible in case of the deformation or illness of the fetus. Even if their brain is dead, even if they don’t have a head, you can’t do anything about it. Isn’t it a bit illogical?
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Not just a bit. A whole lot.
Every time a woman gives birth, it brings her to a brink of death. Society doesn’t think that way because giving birth is supposed to be normal. Some misguided people might even say it’s a woman’s duty.
But childbirth is tightly associated with death of the mother, the child or both. The biggest blood spenders in a large hospital where I work are women during childbirth. Because the risk of dying due to bleeding is real.
Pregnancy also leaves a permanent mark on a woman’s body. Your bone density decreases, you have the risk of developing life-threatening high blood pressure and pregnancy may provoke some health issues from being manageable to being extremely serious.
Now, why would you ever, EVER risk a woman’s life to deliver a dead child? And why would the society put her through the immense grief of carrying a dead being in her womb, burdening her body and her mind, just because the society wants to uphold some abstract principles?
Principles are supposed to serve the humanity, serve the Earth, not enslave them.
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Abortion on demand is a complex issue to say the least.
From my perspective as someone who self-identifies as an Evangelical Christian, I find it horrifying that my government is allowing vitriolic, hate-soaked language to distract from a number of other situations in which millions of men, women, and children who actually DO exist are suffering terribly.
The suffering of men, women, and children along the border between the United States and Mexico is real. The deaths by gun violence of thousands is real. I have been weeping buckets since learning of how drug smugglers blackmail people or falsely promise people things in order to use them as drug mules. And I am horrified at reports of women and children being raped, left to die in the heat, and otherwise discarded. And men who fail to do their job as mules are shot.
And despite all the high-sounding rhetoric, nobody in my government has stopped disaffected, mentally ill individuals from purchasing illegal guns and shooting whoever they please–African-Americans in a shopping mall, toddlers in a Texas school, elderly Taiwanese men and women in a California church.
And in my city, food insecurity is at an all-time high thanks to American economic policy, and I personally in the past month have had to call 911 (our emergency number) to report shootings during the day–one two weeks ago just four houses from where I live.
My neighborhood is a diverse neighborhood with people from around the world: Myanmar, Nepal, Somalia, Afghanistan, Puerto Rio, Cuba, Germany, England, you name it. It’s large, so at one end you have McMansions and six-figure salaries, and at the other you have middle class and working class people and some people on welfare. Not a small, close, ethnically homogeneous neighborhood, so the potential for misunderstanding is great, but EVERYONE is suffering because of United States laws and policies of all kinds.
And my government, rather than use its time and energy to truly address issues that are truly–right here and now–starving and killing living human beings, both old and young . . . my government is allowing people to intimidate judges in direct contradiction to clear United States law and allowing people supposedly in favor of tolerance and thoughtful communication to scream “burn it all down” and actually do that.
I am ashamed to be an American at the moment, entirely ashamed. Political egos the size of whole continents and corruption that makes chaebols seem like innocent schoolchildren–that’s the current US government in a nutshell. Whatever rhetoric may come out of Washington, the living are dying, and the elderly and young are starving, and both women and men are being abused.
Sorry to use this discussion as a political soapbox, but I am angry and sad and deeply ashamed of my country at the moment.
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I don’t understand the issue with us as women. Men should really put their pride to the side and stop acting as if we are a bother. I do understand that we can be a lot sometimes, but all of this sexual assault and the anger towards us is heavy and ridiculous. Not all men are bad and not all me are doing this; however, these same men who are against it 20% of them just look away because they don’t want to get involved.
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Out of all the things uncle sam wants to overturn… right now in this moment… while there are many many other pressing issues…
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Please don’t put my words out of context. I clearly said:
Because in a lot of cases, that is what happens. And giving the child up is often not even mentioned if the mother doesn’t come up with the idea herself. And then her only choice is between adoption and foster care, but once given up her rights to raise her child, she has no guarantee to get them back and no guarantee that her child is safe.
I’m not saying people SHOULD have abortions; I’m saying the option shouldn’t be taken away from them completely. Your suggestion about improving their situations could exist next to women’s right to have a legal, safe abortion so that they really have a choice instead of going to the abortion clinic because they see no other way. Give them an option to raise their own child even if they are in a shitty situation, but leave the decision to them. Of course in reality, no law can take all problems away so we will never see this happen on a large scale.
As soon as you put restrictions on when it is and isn’t allowed, you are going to have to deliver proof. Sexualt assault can’t always be proven beyond reasonable doubt and even if it can, it’s a traumatic process for the woman involved, a woman who is already vulnerable because of her unplanned pregnancy (from her attacker, no less).
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That’s what my mum is always telling me.
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Yes and sadly some women already died because dead fetuses weren’t removed (triplet pregnancy) and so on.
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Here are the freshest statistics as of today:
- 9 US states already have a ban on abortion, 6 of which also ban abortion in cases of incest and rape.
- 26 US states (over a half) will in the nearest future put to vote a ban on abortion.
- Already the same lobby who made the Supreme Court overrule Roe vs Wade wants to put into place laws which will allow women to be sent to jail if they travel out of the state and get an abortion.
- The same group pushes for installing border patrol between states so that pregnant women are not allowed to travel to a state where an abortion is legal.
- Women who seek abortion are more likely already mothers with multiple children.
- Abortion is recognised as a human right by UN.
Source:
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Maybe in essence it isn’t (there’s no particular mention of abortion in the Bible as such), but that’s the Pope’s official position, for instance. (I know that in US they are mostly Protestant, but I’m putting it out there as an example).
Presumably, these pregnant women will cross the border in the early months when it doesn’t already show, and most of them (not all, though) will have done a pregnancy test at home, so that no official hospital record exists of their condition. Especially if such abortion bans and travel bans are in place, they will be extra careful not to tell anyone except maybe their immediate family or their partner. So … are these people suggesting of subjecting to pregnancy tests ALL women of reproductive age who cross the border? That’s ridiculous!
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These are not directed to women who have their own money or who can travel freely without problem. These women will most probably use contraception and will most probably find their way to a safe, expensive clinic, if the pregnancy is a result of a crime.
These measures are for the impoverished women who can’t afford travelling and for women who can’t explain a trip to their family. How can you explain to a wife beater that you need to travel alone for a couple of days?
The measures are also trying to discourage friends and supporting relatives from taking care of the woman and covering for her. If abortion is an offense that gets everybody in prison, you wouldn’t want to risk your best friend’s freedom.
Therefore, the measures are targeting the population who is most vulnerable and in most need of a free choice. Which, in my opinion, was the goal of these laws to begin with.
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There is a misunderstanding in what the Court decision was it was sent back to the states where it belongs. It is up to the people of the states to decide what happens to abortion now. No woman’s life will be left endanger. If a medical emergency such as ectopic pregnancy’s, still born and any situation that endangers the mother is still allow. Abortion was being used as a form of birth control in other words women were having multiple abortion instead of using the pill, condoms. Also, women were wanting to go as far as up to over a week after the birth to kill the child. If it was animal in America there would be outrage. Something is wrong!!!
Poland changed the laws of female rights and abortation few years ago and couple of women already died because of that.
In the end it’s a very patriarchic and narcisstic approach that an embryo that is just a cell is more important than a woman (this thinking is deeply engraved into societies because that embryo is “created” by male sperm, so all those men think it’s their property).
Besides, even in Western countries female rights are not etablished for long. Many European countries only had better life circumstances with voting rights for women etc. somewhat in the 19xx’s, some European countries had no voting rights until late 1970’s, some even did not allow women to work or rent own apartments in late 1970’s unless she was married and her husband agreed (that means a woman had to either stay at her parents’ house or had to marry for moving out even when she was working and earned own money).
The younger generations here are very uninformed about these aspects, thinking female rights are something “given” that would stay forever, so instead of focusing on female rights, many wasted their activities for topics that does not affect them.
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There is no misunderstanding.
Don’t misunderstand us. At the end, the outcome is what counts.
We don’t want to stress the point that judges of all people lied in the process to get their position. The only thing a woman in Germany is allowed to lie in the process of getting a job, is about lying if she wants children or is pregnant at the moment, because that question is not “valid”.
There won’t be a change.
If a woman, or a girl, does not want to proceed her pregnancy for whatever reason, she will, find a way to end it by putting herself in danger. This can mean she will harm her body, or will go to unverified “helpers”, end her life because of devastation, or giving birth in secret without any help and abandoning the baby (which can lead to its death), or living a life she didn’t chose. The last one will not result in a happy mom-child-relationship automatically, if the mental health of the woman suffered through the pregnancy.
Using abortion as a substitute for contraception, oh dear … Ever thought that the problem starts with the lack of education in that field? And now, how should I understand these new laws as a way of “educate” woman on contraception, now that some states come up with new laws about prohibiting contraception …
Sorry but look up yt there you will be able to find a report on a woman from Poland, as the country has a new similar law now and there was a young woman dreaming of having a sibling for her daughter. The fetus was not healthy and predicted the life of the baby would be over in less than a year. This regarding the law is an acceptable point, and she could have had an abortion, but the doctors fear the law and didn’t want to “remove” the child since there was a heartbeat. She tried to get an abortion in another country, however she never got it. Prolonging her pregnancy and giving her body mental and physical stress lead to her death, let me as a person make this assumption and now her daughter, which she wanted to have a sibling to grow up together will be raised by her sister. Do you think American doctors will have more courage than the Polish, when you think about the sue culture in the US? I doubt it, heavily doubt it. Can you guarantee that some woman will not become a “victim” to these new laws?
It is short-sighted to just say, it is only a kind of “formality” that would have been the case if there were at least enough similarities on rights to an abortion now, but that is not the case.
You may, think that I am pro-abortion, which I am not, but I have never seen a good outcome of a pregnancy that led to having the child and raising it, when you do not want to. Or even marrying the father of the child. Not once have I seen a “happy” outcome. But I would never force my beliefs on any other woman. Because I have not lived her life. I am glad I was never in the position that I had to chose, but at least in my country I do have the right to chose, at least 12 weeks into the pregnancy (for medical reason the term is longer, but I don’t want to put all things up here, if you are interested into abortion rights in Germany look up §218 of our constitution).
Going through the pregnancy and giving the child up for adoption is a nice picture, but it doesn’t go well in every case, so I can understand women that say that it’s no option for them. I had a friend who wanted to do it, but going through the pregnancy, and she was a single mom then with a 3-year-old it was putting a lot of stress on her mentally and her family did as well. So, after the child was born and even got the name from the parents to be, she couldn’t bring herself to sign the papers and kept the baby. Is it only a scar to her? Certainly not, since the parents to be in an open adoption, knew her and needed psychological help, because not getting a baby that was meant to be adopted has the same effect on one like a miscarriage.
I met a few women in my life that had an abortion, and none of them went to the doctor as they would want to have their sniffles treated.
If contraception doesn’t work, I am not talking about the 99% safety of the product used, I mean the process, that means either there is a problem in awareness, if it is the lack of education or a society problem … I can’t tell, I never lived in the US, so I can’t really make an assumption there.
The problem I see in the US is that these new laws in the States of the US are, let me say, only “pro-birth” and not “pro-live” at all. There is too little help, especially for single moms or families in financial hardship, whether it is financially help, medical help or help in bringing the child up.
To get a glimpse about what the German government offers:
I knew why I didn’t write too much here, because it is rare that there is enough “space” for opinions and at the end there will be someone, with the universal point, when there actually is none. We might differ in many things, but many of us think that your freedom is only a given, if you do not live on the expense of others while restricting their freedom.
You know as a foreigner - the line of “The land of the free” actually starts to sound like the beginning of a fairy tale “Once upon a time …” And it doesn’t feel good, but I guess, we will see what the future brings, and how the American society will react.
I will stop here, as I am needed at another place right now, I won’t take part in any discussion from here on, so read my points like them or not.
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I think in general humans are afraid of change. Anything that brings deviation from whatever the norm is, scares us. We need to keep evolving. Religion and society needs to evolve too. Do people who are against abortion think that women are getting abortions without any thought? No a single woman who gets abortion for any reason is happy about it. There are plenty of reasons to take this step - financial, mental and physical.
There needs to be extensive sex-education and awareness of how to prevent unwanted pregnancy. Contraceptives should be totally free along with periods related products! Health care should be affordable and available!
I think that instead of focusing on creating products like IUD, pills and shots for women (which all have side-effects), companies need to focus on men. Control sperm production somehow. That will take care of unwanted pregnancies 99%. Why is onus always on women to be careful?
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I read an interesting article which exposes the hypocrisy of pro-life advocates who with the same mouth they clamor about the rights of foetuses, allow gun possession, which kills a great number of children (and adults, of course) every year - and no, we are not talking about countries at war.
BY ATEH JEWEL
25 MAY 2022
NICKYLLOYD
On Tuesday, at 11.30am local time, an 18-year-old opened fire and shot dead 19 primary school children and two adults, both teachers. The shooter was killed, apparently shot by the police after fleeing the scene. Perhaps, we’re all so numb to the devastation of gun violence in the US that this heartbreaking account could be referring to any of the 27 school shootings in 2022 – a mere five months into the year. However, the latest mass shooting was at Robb Elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, and the teenage killer, Salvador Ramos, is another person to add to the long list of shooters – or, in my opinion, domestic terrorists – who has destroyed a community and countless families in America, the land of the free.
What kind of country enables a teenager to go on a killing spree with assault weapons and rifles? How many slaughtered children and families will it take to before effective gun control legislation is introduced in the US?
It’s utterly incomprehensible – yet unfortunately, true – that the same people who are “pro-life” and promote policies to control women’s reproductive rights are often the same people who are anti-gun control. Isn’t protecting innocent lives and prohibiting people from causing murderous devastation “pro-life”? How are all the “pro-life” policy makers – who are forcing women back into back-alley abortions, risking their lives and mental health – unable to see the hypocrisy in allowing children to be gunned down? It makes no sense to me.
END OF QUOTE
On another article, I read:
According to the PEW Research Center, only 38% of Republicans (v. 80% of Democrats and 61% of adult Americans) believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases, and only 20% of Republicans (v. 81% of Democrats and 53% of adult Americans) say gun laws should be stricter.
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What woman in her right mind would rather go through an abortion than use a regular form of birth control? I know several American women who had an abortion at some point in their life (and who are now having a very hard time because of all the triggering news their country is bombarding them with) and not a single one of them ever thought, “let’s quit the pill and have an abortion instead!” They either had their own very good reasons to take that difficult step or there was someone who forced them to do so.
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USA abortion statistics support your view and suggest abortion is not used as regular birth control.
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