Why adding two unwilling moderators for a same language?
First of all, I’d like to say that this message doesn’t point out to anybody and that I know every CM works differently, which by the way, can be sometimes weird and questionable.
I would like to know what are the main rules or ethics that a CM should follow? For one good reason, some CMs allow themself to put two moderators together without their request. Sometimes between two people that don’t get along or don’t even know each other…
I find this really disrespectful and annoying for the project. Who said that two moderators that don’t know each other, don’t like each other, would do a better job than only one moderator?
I know that sometimes adding a knowledgeable moderator along with a new one is a good thing, to allow the new one to learn… But then again, this shouldn’t be a forceful decision.The new moderator should have the opportunity to ask the experienced moderator for his support and help, or at least, the question should be asked to both sides.
A consenting choice should be better than a forceful choice, don’t you think?
Let’s stay civilized and have a constructive discussion
I never add two moderators for a language except for English unless the first language mod requests it or is OK with it. If B. Asks to be a mod I always tell them discuss it with A. And let A. Pm me to be added so I know A. Is OK with it.
Yes, obviously it has to be consensual. I don’t know who did this, but I’m sure it’s not the norm.
I once got added together with another person, but it was by mistake, because there were two CMs and each one had promised to one of us! I only saw the other CMs name on the channel and the other mod’s name on the cover page so I thought that my CM didn’t get the channel and that’s why I didn’t get the place. And I forgot all about it. But someone told me, at the very last minute, that I was also a mod!
The other future mod didn’t want to collaborate, so I withdrew. The show was to start in two days, all good subbers were taken and it was impossible to gather a team at such short notice. Whereas she was willing to go with only two subbers and do most of the subbing herself.
See how complications may arise because of lack of coordination?
Sometimes there can be a good collaboration when two mods split the responsibilities. I worked beautifully with mahoula in “W”. But then she’s an extremely smart person who knows how to deal with people and make the best out of situations, there was mutual respect and courtesy. Most importantly, we had agreed on it among ourselves before asking the CM.
Oh Dudie. If all of Viki’s CM could be like you, I think Viki would be a better community.
For English, I agree. It is very different. But concerning the other languages, I find that it becomes much more complicated. Ask A, it allows him to choose. Long live democracy!
Oh my God. The situation you just described is really complicated. You retired? Oh no… But if it was a drama you loved… So bad! Organization and coordination must really be symbiotic. Otherwise, the alliance of two people becomes chaotic. What a good example, thank you Irmar.
As you say, a drama for two can also be great. It’s great when both people are agreed and motivated. When the balance of the balance is done.
Absolutely agree! Consent is always better, and should always be the choice, esp. when dealing with volunteers. I don’t know about how others work or operate their channel(s). But in my case, and with my Co-CM (or future Co-CM), we would keep each other in the loop whether in accepting new team mates or communicating with them. In the case of pairing any two volunteers, such pairing is done with agreement from them, and usually with the agreement of the team mate who joined first. Only if they are agreeable will they be paired to work together.
Yes, we should all stay civilized at all times. After all, this is a volunteer community. No one should boss anyone around. And no one has any reason to be uncivilized to anyone. Not even if you are the CM of the channel or the chief of any subgroup. We should all ‘work’ together in a civilized and constructive manner at all times.
My goodness! You are my soul mate! You’re totally right. The viki position system has been established to increase the harmonious functioning of a channel and the cohesion of the team. However, some take a place in the pyramid that should not be a place of “power” but a place of “support”. I’m not saying that we do not need rules, I’m just saying that we should all respect each other, and this from the new translator to the experienced CM. But Jade, do we dream of an utopia?
Translation: Yes, yes. I like your post. I am not afraid of reprisals. (Rebel Team)
Piranna : “Pira” comes from “Pirate” in French and “Piranna” comes from “Piranha”, isn’t it? I finally understand your rebellious spirit! Or it is a message addressed to me “Pire-Anna”, The worst of Anna. XD
Long live to the rebel team! (Or just the honest and fair team?)
The thing about CM is exactly what you said, I may add that:
if people (CM and others included) consider being CM as a position of power, then they agree themselves to let this person has this “imaginary power”. They acknowledge that being CM = a position of or for power. If they let CM do whatever they want and that they don’t fix themselves a limit to a ruler’s power, they agree to that (reluctantly or not). Actually, who decided that the CM can do whatever he wants? It’s written nowhere. It’s not only a question about the vision of the ruler, but also about the vision of people who see this person as a ruler or consider themselves as “subjects” and the limits they put to his/her power. If you never say anything, it’s like if “you agree”. And the thing will repeat itself.
[Aparte from this: like Catalonia: before, they acknowledged the executive power, the King and being part of Spain (patriotism). No protests and they accepted Spanish laws, etc.
Now: they changed their vision and claims their independence. They don’t acknowledge anymore Spanish political representants, nor their belonging to Spain… They want their own rules, own representants, own economy and identity. They don’t see why they should “obey” to people they don’t recognize as their representants or having power on them. And they did obtain their independence]
I don’t know how people see the CM position in their head, I can only talk from my view, I’ve never considered the position as CM as someone “above” or someone holding more power to use at will or someone that we should allow to disrespect others or ourselves. Instead, I consider it as a position of more responsabilities, the tree, the roots that holds every branch and fruits together, but roots without branches or fruits, it’s not a tree. Maybe it’s more like someone having different tools or different tasks than someone having superpowers.
In a team, there shouldn’t be even talks about disrespect otherwise it’s not a team. We can’t force people to work together neither, it should be volunteering work not adding 1+1 to make 2.
You enter a shop, people ask you what you want, they don’t give you a shirt in your hands and force you to pay when you come or ask for a shirt. We’re free, I don’t see why we should allow people to chain us in comoderating to be able to have fun on something we like and I don’t see from which right the CM has to chain us in comoderating. A “good” CM (or ruler) is not someone who forces things on his/her teammates.
PS: Pour te motiver à lire Anna:
Piranna = Pi + Piranha + Anna.
I call it fate or karma or did we meet during our past lives? “I believed there was a red thread connecting our hands.” (cf Rebel)
Pi = π = infinite, eternity, timeless, constant, steady, easy & hard, curiosity.
Anna = Among zillions of names, my account name had to contain “Anna” and you had to be Anna, the Anna
Now that I’ve fallen into your spider web, “your cold gaze is killing me”.
Now that you’ve awakened my rebellious streak deep in my soul,
my Viki life with you has morphed into dance & song & sushis: freedom, decadence, fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur0hCdne2-s
For our wedding, here is the list of things that I absolutely want:
Rebel’s OSTs in Music
A penguin decoration
And most of all… all the wonderful people I met on Viki.
Because it’s true. Yes, it’s true. Viki and her community have a lot of weaknesses. But still, there are good things. Good people, with whom we really are a united community! And I’m sure we’ll meet many more wonderful people in the future!
More seriously, I think what you just said is very true! Beyond the position that is granted to the CM, it is the representation that one has, that’s the problem. I mean no matter how a CM is, or how he manages his team. The result will be the same. Everyone has, at first, an erroneous representation. Society has always been hierarchical, so when Viki introduced a hierarchy system to make a channel work, hierarchical representations also came to stick to this. We have representations of each other and the CM has its own posture. It is a shame that the link between the translators (bottom of the scale) and the CM (at the very top) is so weak. Translators also have a legitimacy that viki can not deny. But a CM only knows the moderators… What would be nice if a Russian translator could speak to the CM of the channel, and a German translator speaks to a Spanish moderator…
This hierarchical impression of scale is the basis of a good functioning but also the limit of a united community.
So, an impression of “power” instead of “support” of a CM… It’s not surprising. The role of a CM should perhaps be better defined, with rules. Not imaginary rules.
This might prevent a CM from adding two moderators together without them wanting it. And if viki add a second CM without his own agreement? Ah ah! Surprise!
HAHA XD She will be jealous, I remind you that you invited me for your wedding, and I’m your bridesmaid.
I think your bride-to-be can do invitations to all the wonderful people you met on Viki and she also can play ukulele (last time, I heard her playing romantic songs… I think she was training for your wedding, I bet she will play Rebel beautifully )
I think me being here is enough of a gift, but I can make some effort and buy a sushi wedding cake and some living salmons so you can keep them at home.
I think doing it in Antarctic would be better, no need to do decoration, you will have penguins as guests and icebergs as decorations.
(Do I see strawberries with sushis??)
Just one thing: don’t forget to come back after your honeymoon in Antarctic. We have a sushi restaurant to open (so I can eat for free) and we have to plan our trip in China with our friends (so we can find Yang Yang and Hu Ge there)
Lots of love & salmon to King Pingu (I almost forgot)
More seriously (which is hard when talking with you, we know really well how to pinch each other):
I think so too, we have our own representation of what a CM (or moderator) can/cannot do and adding to that, we take and build models from what’s being shown to us from others and integrate it as the norm whereas Viki didn’t write real norms and let us handle this between volunteers but seems we can’t always handle it correctly. One of the limits. We’re free but our freedom can be limited by others’ freedom and liberties they take and impact us.
The solution might be to tell Viki about the situation even if the results are not positive, it’s better to say something than stay silent and let it go (like victims of A. crimes).
Reminds me of The Karpman Drama Triangle in relationships in general, not really specific to Viki, but it can exist everywhere:
You place yourself in the place of the victim or the bully and you give legitimacy to it by accepting it.
Once victim and then you become persecutor: like talion law “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”. We reproduce the same thing that we’ve been through to others because we went through some hardship, we think that people should also go through the same hardship we once knew. Apparently, it’s counter-productive (even nefast some say) to have this type of relationship scheme.
In French: the bully frees his aggressive pulsions, dominates, critics, bullies because he was bullied (incorporated).
The victim: attracts bully and savior because of his own attitude.
About hierarchy in society: you already know what I think about it Totally agree with you. We have a model in our head with hierarchy. Moreover, the position vocabulary used on Viki has hierarchy consonants: “manager”, “moderator”. It can be misleading on our roles and what we can/cannot do, the sense of hierarchy in real life with all its obligations and representations and the sense on Viki.
Indeed, there’s no real hierarchy on Viki, there are supervisors and terms but all in all, we’re in the same basket: volunteers. Being CM doesn’t give money or more concrete, physical advantages except building team, having the last word if uncertainties and having the opportunity to communicate with volunteers from other countries and not only from your alma mater language. I don’t see other advantages, but if someone can find more, please, say.
One of the biggest discoveries when being CM is: you can talk with other people from all over the world. That can be surprising but we don’t really use the chat box to talk in a community. We’re doing most of the time fine with a chatterbox not working since we don’t really use it except the fact that we don’t know where people are on which part.
Strangely, we are bound to meet people having the same interest as us and talk at different degrees with them, but there’s some distance between us inside the community, between the same team (even you felt that distance, sometimes the relationship seems only formal or superficial). I can count people I really talk to on my fingers, I’m not even sure it can reach 10.
But what is bringing most of people durably on Viki is people, our links with the community, sometimes more than the drama itself, it’s fun to work with other people we talk to on the same drama. I tried other communities and I didn’t find one with the same fun and proximity that I have with some others because of the organization here, we have forums, Disqus, chat box, PM to talk between us, on other websites, we can find a lot fewer tools, it’s like working alone like working on the same thing but without ever talking to each others. It can be more boring!
I always wonder if everyone was on one channel where he is alone either translating or segmenting, what and how would he do? Would I have the same fun, would I be as much as motivated as being in a team, would I take the same time, would I even manage to finish it or wanting to finish it? Would I come back more often or less often? Would I leave?
Adding to that, if no one was watching the drama or maybe a handful of people, would the person translate/ segment it or manage/ moderate it?
Haha, you had the same evil idea of putting a second CM without agreement.
I have limited experience as Channel Manager, only a few titles, but I’ve dealt with many as a moderator, so I have started to have an idea of what it is or what it should be in my mind.
A Channel Manager is not an enviable role, it comes with more responsibility than fun.
First of all, the choice of managers, in languages you know nothing of. You have to have a large network of people you trust and ask for their opinion. And even then, how do you build that network of people you trust? Maybe they are nice, active in the community, consistent in their work etc., but do you really know about their language skills?
One of my languages is Greek, a language nobody knows except for Greeks. So I see very often Greek moderators who don’t even know how to speak and write good Greek - so how can they choose and correct subbers?
A Greek person who doesn’t know good Greek, an English person who doesn’t know good English, a French person who doesn’t know good French? Of course it’s possible! We’ve all met those people. Who during their 12 years at school were looking at their window, at their cellphone, or chatting with their deskmate, barely passing from one year to the next. People who never read books but only the Astrology section of TV magazines. People who belong to a family of people who don’t speak the language correctly in the first place.
Those people are native, but they are not proficient. Especially with the written word.
But the poor Channel Manager, how on earth can s/he know all that?
So that’s a huge burden.
Then of course finding the segmenters and the native subber team (Korean, Chinese etc.) who will translate into English. Ohoho! More trouble here. They are so few, and precious, and stretched thin, full of other projects. You’ll have to beg and coax them, and even then, they may join the team but come rarely.
Finding a page designer in case you don’t know how to do it yourself is another headache. These people are also few, and making such cover page takes time, so they may not like to take many projects.
You also have to send spam messages to all people who had the bad idea of “following” your previous channels, in order to get support for the license.
Thinking about it, a Channel Manager’s main job - and a difficult, tiresome job it is - takes place before the show starts airing. Then, if the mods are chosen wisely, everything will go on smoothly, with just some little intervention here and there in case a problem arises. But if some languages lag, you have to become unpleasant and send reminder messages, up to the point that you may have to replace a mod.
So yes, the CM position has power of decision, but the responsibility that goes with it is so huge that it’s not always an enviable position.
It’s like being a building administrator. Yes, you get to decide some stuff on your own like choosing the elevator walls colour, but you also have to wait for the petrol tank to arrive and check the level to make sure they’re not putting less than you pay for, you have to call for the electrician and the plumber, change light bulbs and face tenants who don’t pay their dues every month. In my mother’s building we used to do this in rotation, all the owners by turn, in alphabetical order. I did it for one year enthusiastically, but the next year I was glad to move house, to a place where as a tenant I didn’t have to do it.
Let’s imagine each one writes a check-list of what a CM is supposed to do (either our own list, either a preformatted list with common items) and then doing a second check-list after he/she finishes a project as CM.
On the 1st list “CM tasks for you”: I think you will tick a lot of squares, Irmar, knowing how you are XD You might even tick everything XD Whereas some of us will tick only a few items because, for them/us, a CM should do only these tasks, it’s enough.
On the 2nd list “CM tasks you did”: compare with what you tick on the 1st list and what you tick now. It’s here you see if you did a good job or not and if you respected what you intended to do or what you said you’d do/ what you really did finally. Even, we can color a full square to show if we really finish one task or color it midway if we didn’t complete one task that we began to do.
I guess each one will have a different check-list of CM tasks. And comparing list 1 and 2, each one might have less ticked items.
I think it’s because you put a lot of things in the CM tasks list that you also say that:
But some people don’t put a lot of items in their check-lists so will they say the same thing you say one day, will they do the same things you put on the list? What do we think people expect from us when we take 1 particular role?
It’s a question of representation as you said: “so I have started to have an idea of what it is or what it should be in my mind.”
We can do the same thing for moderating. It’s here that we see if we really did what we planned to do or if we really do what we say.
About CM decision, I think there’s something that should be talked about here. I see it like this: It’s more about who is taking the decision (is he/she reasonable? Did he/she consider most of the things?) and if this decision is a good decision (is the decision reasonable?), more than “It’s the CM who decides and stop here.” or “since it’s the CM who decided this, we have to “obey” without asking ourselves some questions.”
I think when people decide to invest “power” or to put some responsibilities to people, it’s a question about the legitimacy of this person and their actions/decisions. Are CM decisions legit because he/she is CM? Are decisions of Viki to put this person CM always legit? What legitimacy we see in this person to tell us to do this? Normally, in democracy, we elect the President, the person who should be the one to represent us, the one we find legit in this role. Here, it’s not elected based on community’s opinion, it’s based on Viki’s opinion.
It’s more about testing our level of trust in this person and his ability to take good decisions for the team, for the drama. To follow willingly and with conviction a leader, someone, to work for someone, I think we have to have some trust in this person’s ability to make reasonable decisions, his capacities and his ability to bring some coherence to the team and bring them together, to support it more than to boss the team around or to want to control everything. Also, to be here when the team needs him/her. It’s not someone that I see above others but with others not only at the beginning only but during all the project, his/her project. For me, that is how a leader should be and that’s the type of person I would like to follow and to work with. Not someone who will make things more complicated or who will only think of himself first and forget that there’s a team that needs him/her or that people he/she talks with are humans/contributors too like him. As Anna said, the first word that came to my mind when saying “CM” is not “power” but “real support”. Maybe, that makes the difference between people who will only take dramas to have this CM “power” and a golden pedestal and not for other things in the package, and people who takes the role for something else than “power” (if there is real power, in my opinion, it’s our vision of the thing, we give ourselves too much credits to a CM power, it’s not the reason of the existence of CM position on Viki, nor its definition in my sense).
For me, seems we have to create this reliable network ourselves, that everyone can use this network. Maybe something new or if nssa could add something, it would be among senseis for subbing academy to find for the community this reliable network (maybe not every sensei but some people designated on some criteria). They can be the ones to tell people if this person is okay with his language.
The problem is how to pick reviewers for each drama?
-Senseis don’t have ill intentions towards a person and they don’t pick only their friends or other senseis colleagues. It’s hard to play fairplay and to be fair with people we had friendly relationship or bad interactions, the victim will become the bully for revenge or the bully likes to be in a “superior” position and goes on.
-Personal interests: the sensei didn’t ask to be moderator of the drama, otherwise, I’m not sure he will be not biased.
Another thing possible: the sensei can go on a few parts to see how it was subbed and make his own opinion, rather than counting on editors opinion.
There’s also something about skills and being fair, it’s linked to the correct completion of the drama. We don’t judge only on skills but also the capacity of how much dramas a person has and can take and finish in a “timely manner” ( I think Viki used this expression, I find some truth in this).
Not only about subtitling, but also about editing. We would spend less time in reviewing what we do as CM, moderator, segmenter, subtitler, editor if we divide our time with more projects. And the subtitler or the editor or the viewer will see what has been done in a hurry because at one time, someone had too many projects or didn’t have enough time to spend the right time on this or didn’t have the motivation. We’re not blind, we see it, we subtitle it, we edit it, we view it, we feel it. And what’s the vibe coming from after seeing this? Can we control ourselves or our desires? Do we still have a foot in reality?
I think one of the thing for us that is hard to accept is: reality/desire, we don’t have enough time to be on every drama we are interested in, although we would love to be able to participate in the process, it’s not humanly possible. Accepting our limit is something that is not only linked to sharing, to Viki, but to knowing who we are, what we can do, it’s a work to do on ourselves, being honest not only with others, but also with ourselves first. A big wall to cross at the beginning…
If being CM, moderator, segmenter, editor, subtitler becomes something that is heavy on our shoulders or if we become irascible because of this, I think it’s when we should ask ourselves some questions and take a step back to breathe. Our goal is also to have fun while contributing, maybe it’s our first goal. Maybe, we should think of changing roles for a while or take less things to be able to breathe and be stable mentally while doing contributions correctly.
I do not know who you met but you were unlucky. I think some people really take their role on viki too seriously. As if a number (Contributions) could legitimize the way they act. As if a role in a channel could legitimize the way they act. It’s completely ridiculous. But I think that a person who thinks so, unfortunately, we can not change her. To think like that, you have to be a little crazy. Or you have to escape the real world, which is not appreciable. So, even if you do not work with these people and run away from them, that’s not good. Well, maybe that’s the only solution. Too bad! But as in the real world, we can not appreciate everyone… So, let’s enjoy even more those we love.
[quote=“piranna, post:17, topic:17614”]
Let’s imagine each one writes a check-list of what a CM is supposed to do (either our own list, either a preformatted list with common items) and then doing a second check-list after he/she finishes a project as CM. [/quote]
This is what viki says about the CM:
Channel Managers are responsible for
recruiting a Channel team (Moderators, Segmenters, and Subtitlers),
overseeing the quality of subtitles,
notifying Viki Staff of Community Guidelines violations, and
running any sort of activities on the Channel!
Both Channel Managers and Moderators can do the following:
Adding a translation of the Channel Description and Channel Title in another language
Editing the Community Wall/Cover Page design
Locking/unlocking subtitles in each language
Moderating Timed Comments
Add a “Team Name” [/QUOTE]
In reality, I have seen that some English Moderators, especially the ones with years of experience and dozens of projects under their belt, help with many of the CMs tasks like recruiting segmenters and subbers, because they know lots of people.
That is true. A CM has some form of responsibility. He must start the machine! “CHOOSE” who will work on his machine and what materials they will use. But by choosing, they do not know if the quality is good or weak. A CM takes care of the English team first (well, when it takes this responsability and does not give it to someone else). Because a CM can choose to delegate everything. For other languages, he chooses a moderator and that’s it. He will not look any further (except exeption or when it comes to his native language).
Then his pseudo-responsibilities (I prefer to say “a role”) are as follows: Form a team to offer the best subtitles, the best quality. (In all languages? I do not think a CM is bothering to watch what happens in all languages, but maybe the main languages yes.)
In reality, the CM chose its own responsibilities.It is better to delegate to someone, if he does not know the operation or language. Moreover, it is the team that completes the project and very rarely the CM (at least alone).
Conclusion: Yes the role of CM is sometimes difficult and not to envy. For some projects more than others … (if you know what I mean Irmar) But his true and only ROLE is to form an English team, find segmenters, choose moderators (fair or unfair). Quality does not belong to him.
All CMs want their project to be in all the languages of the best possible quality, so they choose moderators they know, with knowledge they think they have … But we would almost forget that those who translate are the translators… (This is another subject)
But the CM trusts the moderators. The CM trusts his segmenters, he trusts his entire team. His only responsibility then is to trust. Trust people we do not know, but who are part of our community. A community that works together and is responsible for a certain quality.
A CM is responsible for his trust. And sometimes, there are surprises. His confidence is affected. Too bad!
Final conclusion: His role is to form a team. His responsibility is to trust.
[I do not know if it’s clear, what I say ^^ But I understand myself. Ouf]