Common mistakes being replicated in English

Contributing Subtitling
63

I’m not sure there’s even a “true native”, except for maybe those Amazonian tribes that had no contact with outsiders for millennia, but then again I vouch for no one. I’d claim continuity (history, language, locality, etc), but not true “genetic” nativity. Maybe because Greece is a crossroads and everyone and their mother and their sailor father have been through here.

Also, I wouldn’t state that second- or third-generation immigrants have largely “questionable” skills in English. It’s probable, but it’s not the rule. It depends on the person, you don’t gather XP points in language skills by generations. Fun fact: I had the TV on some day but I wasn’t watching and I heard someone speaking English with a Greek accent. You know the one, all Greeks can tell. I walked over and saw that it was that Greek basketball player (Giannis Antetokounmpo) who’s now playing in the USA. Although his parents were born in Nigeria, him growing up speaking mostly Greek even gave him a Greek accent in English!

It’s mostly backgammon marathons and soft drug use, but the media love to add those titillating rumors for the parents and the conservatives. I was never part of it and I’m firmly against “takeovers” (lock-outs, maybe?), but all Greek students know… If indeed the younger generations have turned to sex orgies, then they’re doing better than my generation. :slight_smile:

I totally agree.

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64

OFF TOPIC

Nah, it’s sex and booze all right, at least in some places. And I’m not even talking of university students but high-schoolers. Drugs are mostly in private schools like Kolleghio, because they are rich kids.
My mother has a couple of friends with granddaughters who go to public high schools. It seems that on those occasions they are expected to raid their house bar of everything alcoholic. One granddaughter said there was sex among some classmates (more than two), while another one was recording on the cellphone. She walked away so she couldn’t say how it ended, but she says there is sex in the toilets sometimes when she is in a hurry to go but the door is locked and moaning can be heard. (In my time it was the same thing with students occupying the toilets to smoke while you desperately waited outside: that’s how I learned to hold it for 8 hours)
The granddaughter of the other friend didn’t go while there was the lock-out/takeover [ HEY! Somebody tell us what’s the English word! ] but she went after it was over, and the desks had been broken and set on fire. Some parents told the others that there were bottles and condoms everywhere.
A friend of mine organized a birthday party for his 15-year-old son at home, and had only soft drinks prepared, but the classmates all brought hard liquor with them. They became very drunk. The birthday boy’s noona came with a basin but she was too late: the teenagers, unused to drinking, had vomited all over the carpet and the curtains. My friend says it took him days to clean up and the smell lingered for long (needless to say that it was the last such party he hosted: the next ones took place at "Goody’s)

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65

Kids these days… SMH

Mine were simpler times.

I love how you used noona. :slight_smile: Our little community is something else, isn’t it? :slight_smile:

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The English word for what you call a “take over” is “sit-in”
@irmar Irmar you got my point entirely as did glykeria. Some people born and raised in the US (and I would not doubt there are some who have been in America for hundreds of years) simply have not had the opportunity or taken the time to learn proper English. And this is why merely stating “I am a native speaker of English” is not enough to qualify for being an editor.

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While I can agree with the sentiment that most Americans aren’t well versed in grammatical English, I can not agree with the thought that past generations of Americans had no opportunity or took the time to learn proper English. The English we speak is vastly different from the English we write. While I was growing up, grammatical English was taught in every elementary school and written English was stressed in every high school and continued into college. However, the focus on using slang is different from generation to generation and was more of a personal choice. So a “native” English speaker can be an adequate editor if their basic education included grammar and good written skills. Sometimes just knowing “you guys” and “okay” are slang expressions is enough in my books, for as many times as they show up in subtitles. :slight_smile:

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Well, not “most” Americans (I don’t think anyone said that), about the same percentage in every country I’d say, bar extreme circumstances (for example, if women are denied basic education in a country, the percentage automatically goes up by about 40% of the population). It applies to all languages. it’s just English is the language all the rest of the subbers rely on, so one mistake can carry over. Typos and grammar don’t really matter the same in that context, I mean I can tell what you’re subz mean if their ritten sth like dat and I can work with it (still it’s super annoying and I waste valuable time), but changes in meaning are even more important.

I admit I don’t really know half the slang kids half my age use nowadays, but that’s the generation gap everywhere and for everybody, and to pretend it doesn’t exist is just fooling ourselves. However, it’s different to use slang in your private life and using it in subs (I won’t even mention professional and other official situations). I use abbreviations like IMO, IIRC and emoji etc all the time, but I would never write them in a sub, just because I’m too bored to type “in my opinion”. I also use misspelled words on purpose in my private life, but that’s one thing and writing “yor a jerk” in a sub is completely different.

I think the problem we focus on is people who think that they qualify as language experts, just because their passport writes a certain word, but in reality they don’t.

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We’re not talking of the use of slang in this thread, we’re talking of grammar errors. In one’s daily life, use of slang is a personal choice; grammar mistakes are not a choice, but the result of ignorance.
About slang and familiar language
Use of slang may not be a choice in one’s work, and it’s not a personal choice in subtitles either. If it’s a Korean company chairman or hospital director or University Dean speaking, he cannot be using American slang (he wouldn’t be using Korean slang either). Even his American counterpart would tend to avoid it, but in a Korean context it sounds really out of place. Nor a Korean youngster to an elder, or anybody to his superior. If it’s two high-schoolers or students, it’s different: a subber may want to reproduce Korean slang and familiar language with the equivalent American, and it’s the only case where it’s justified.
But I’ve even read American slang and familiar language in sageuk subtitles! Sometimes subbers are really careless in adapting language to character, time, situation.

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70

As I edit, I do try to keep in mind who is speaking, and to whom he/she is speaking to make sure the word choice is appropriate. But sometimes I will deliberately not edit anachronistic words. For example in a historical drama, when someone refers negatively to someone else in Korean as a “nom,” I will let stand the subber’s “twerp” or I might put in “churl”, “jackanapes”, etc. Then all the Korean to English subbers smile for a while.
I look for editors who will improve the subtitles. I generally do not want editors who are only capable of correcting grammar and spelling errors – this is why I am impressed when people tell me of their writing and editing experiences.

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I meant no disrespect to any of you for your opinions, but I respectfully disagreed with a point. Taking my words out of context is not helpful criticism for me. What does this teach me? It felt rude. Is ignorance the only reason for their grammar mistakes? I don’t believe so. There must be other factors also. I, too, want good quality subtitles that enhance the drama. The last comment was much more edifying and helpful to me as an editor. We can agree to disagree and still remain cordial and polite.

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I think you are referring to my post about slang, because immediately after you discuss my saying that grammar mistakes happen because of ignorance.
Why do you feel that it is rude and that I wanted to criticize you or “teach” you something? That was not my intention at all.
And I don’t think that I was quoting you out of context. I was replying only to that particular opinion of yours; that’s why I had to isolate it - to make clear what exactly I was referring to.
I started by pointing out that you were taking the discussion on the direction of slang, when all the previous posts were not about the use of slang but only about grammar errors - which are indisputable and easy to spot.
And then, I said to myself, “hm, since slang came into the thread, it’s also an interesting topic, so let me take this chance to say what I think on slang”. And I continued with some thoughts about that. That it’s not only a question of generation but also of social status etc etc.

I am surely sorry that you took it badly, but I feel innocent as a snowflake, because I know very well that I had no intention to criticize you or anything like that.

Is a slight disagreement criticizing or offensive or rude? Then if two people don’t think the same on a certain issue should never have a discussion!
Please clear the misunderstanding in your mind and understand my intentions.

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I accept your apology and I understand how you had no intention of offending me.
I am glad that’s cleared up.

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I also have two questions to ask, but your preferences may differ from one another.

  1. Do you use a comma before, after, both, or not at all with because? For example:
    The girl suffered [,] because when she was working to pay off her parents’ debt [,] her grades declined.

  2. Why would one omit in the following case?
    If she lived her life properly [,] she could have earned a stable living.

I have seen these two cases vary and would like your input as a non-native English speaker. Thank you very much!

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  1. I wouldn’t use a comma before or after ‘because.’ But the sentence itself is a bit awkward. It would’ve been better to say, “Her grades suffered because she was working to pay off her parents’ debt.”

  2. I would keep the comma in this case.

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76

No, “because” doesn’t need a comma either before nor after.
Here is the breakdown:

  1. We have the simple core sentence (called independent clause) “the girl suffered”. This is the gist of the matter.
    (An independent clause is a group of words that can stand on its own as a sentence: it has a subject, a verb, and is a complete thought.)
  2. We have the dependent clause “because her grades dropped”. It answers the question “why did she suffer?”
    (A dependent clause is a group of words that also contains a subject and a verb, but it is not a complete thought. Because it is not a complete thought, a dependent clause cannot stand on its own as a sentence; it is dependent on being attached to an independent clause to form a sentence. You could never write just “Because her grades dropped” and finish there. One would ask: “And then? What happened because her grades dropped?”)
    Dependent clauses can often be identified by words called “dependent markers”, which are usually subordinating conjunctions. If a clause begins with one of these words, it is dependent and needs to be attached to an independent clause. (Common dependent markers: after, as, although, because, before, even though, if, once, rather than, since, that, though, unless, until, when, whenever, whereas, while, among others.)
    And there shouldn’t be a comma. The sentences are joined by these markers, no need for a comma.

The reason you’re confused is that in this case, just after “because”
3. there is another, subordinate sentence which should be between two commas (or two dashes or in parenthesis) to separate it from the primary sentence:
At the time the girl was working to pay off her parents’ debt
But these commas have nothing to do with “because”.
(We use a comma to enclose non-defining relative clauses and other non-essential details and comments. The comma is placed on either side of the insertion.
A nonessential element is a word, phrase, or clause that is not needed to complete a sentence. In other words, it can be removed and the sentence still makes sense and is grammatically correct. If removing the element changes the meaning of the sentence, it is essential. Nonessential elements need to be offset with commas, both before and after.
Examples:
China, one of the most powerful nations on Earth, has a huge population.
W.A.Mozart, who lived in the 18th century, was a great composer
Cats, unlike dogs, can clean themselves.
My friend, Jim, likes to go scuba diving.)

Now that we deconstructed everything, this is the correct way to write your sentence:
The girl suffered because, when she was working to pay off her parents’ debt, her grades declined.
The sentence between commas could be taken off and the rest of it would stand alone perfectly well. So the secondary sentence is an explanation of when (and why), something extra to the main sentence.
It could also be put at the end.
The girl suffered because her grades declined when she was working to pay off her parents’ debt.
It could also be put at the beginning.
At the time the girl was working to pay off her parents’ debt, she was suffering because her grades declined.
As you notice, the main sentence "The girl suffered because her grades declined" is without any comma either before or after the “because”.

All this could be written as a conversation between a person of few words (one of those infuriatiing people, usually guys) and someone with a healthy curiosity.
A: The girl suffered.
B. Oh, poor her, why?
A. Because her grades declined.
B. I see! But why did her grades decline? Couldn’t she study more?
A. She was working.
B. Why on earth would a student work?
A. It was to pay off her parents’ debt.

You know when we would need a comma before “because”?
If it introduced a non-essential subordiate clause:
Unfortunately, because I woke up late this morning, I was a few minutes late to class.
Now, “Unfortunately, I was a few minutes late to class” is the main sentence (independent clause) that can stand well on its own.
(A comma is needed after “unfortunately” since it is a transitional / introductory word at the beginning of the sentence)
"Because I woke up late this morning" is a useful explanation, but not essential. Therefore it must be separated by commas, hyphens or put inside a parenthesis. It is a subordinate clause (a type of introductory element) at the beginning of the sentence.

If you are still confused, this is a useful resource
https://www.aims.edu/student/online-writing-lab/grammar/index.php

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@irmar and @ajumma2, thank you!

I’m a freshman in high school and best friends with a fellow Vikier, an aspiring writer. I won’t call him out, LOL! (I keep bugging him!) Anyway, since I’ve been studying to improve my English, I applaud you both.

@irmar, amazing delineation, by the way.

Mandarin and Cantonese are my mother tongues, so your feedback is insightful. From now on, I’ll continue to use my resources and work from there. (I would sub but am daunted by schoolwork.)

Once again, thank you! :slight_smile:

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It may sound like “could of” in spoken English, but it is always could’ve. It’s just that in speaking, the actual pronunciation of the elision flows better with the “of” sound. It’s too halting to pronounce an elision the way it is written.

People who write elisions, etc. the way they sound when spoken, are simply not well-versed in the English language.
That includes people born in English speaking countries who are considered "native speakers ".

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Great explanation overall. That is one of the reasons, I forbid my subber’s to write contractions, to avoid misunderstandings or wrong word usage.

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Yeah, I am glad people have noticed this. The amount of times I have watched a K-Drama and found fundamental errors that are grammatica, l is unbelievable. Someone should either: hire a translator or use Grammerly. :sunglasses:

ANYWAYS, grammar is something that comes with practise and a good overall understanding of the language, this can only be achieved if you actually sit down with a grammar book and learn English.

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Viki won’t hire professionals, so what’s there to criticise? People do this for free. The Viki Pass doesn’t mention the distribution of subtitles, either.
The fact that something coherent still emerges is plenty fine.

I salute each and everyone of you! Today is Labourer’s Day, so rejoice oh you hard-working men and women of Viki! :raised_hands::+1::heart::heart::heart:

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@ adrian

This person is a troll/fake. If HE/SHE wanted to complain about the grammar in the subtitles, this person needed to at least know how to spell words correctly. The audacity of this person to criticize the subtitles here at Rviki.com. is so, so ridiculous.

[’‘that are GRAMMATICA, l is unbelievable. Someone should either: hire a translator or use GRAMMERLY.’’ :]

[’'ANYWAYS, grammar is something that comes with PRACTISE ‘’]

[’’ this can only be achieved if you actually SIT DOWN with a grammar book and learn English.]

To think going to school is a totally waste of time when we just have to sit down with a book and we will magically learn grammar and English. I don’t even need to read it either! Dear Lord, you learn something new every day. Amazing!

Adrian, Thank you for appreciating each and everyone here, that tries and work so hard to give their best in their subtitles.

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