How would you like Korean names to be formatted?

There is a discussion among the English teams, about the formatting of Korean names.
As you may know, back in the day, an informal poll was made among Korean-English subbers and they tended to prefer the three separate syllables form, because it was fussy to add a hyphen and because writing the whole name without a hyphen would make some names difficult to pronounce.

Why would we want to change the existing system (Lee Min Ho)?
Because for people who are not knowledgeable in Korean, it might seem as Lee is the surname (right), Min is the middle name and only Ho the given name! Whereas Min Ho is the given name, and itā€™s pronounced as one thing (except when enounciating oneā€™s name clearly syllable by syllable, on the first day of school, or in the army!)

South Koreaā€™s [Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the government agency issuing passports to its nationals, formally advised its nationals not to put a space in their given names because having a space in a given name can be misunderstood as having first and middle names;
Ministry of Foreign Affairs of South Korea (2014). ā€œģ—¬ź¶Œģ˜ ķ•œźø€ ģ„±ėŖ…, ė”œė§ˆģž(ģ˜ė¬ø ģ•ŒķŒŒė²³)ė”œėŠ” ģ–“ė–»ź²Œ ķ‘œźø°ķ•˜ė‚˜ģš”?ā€ [How do I romanize my Hangul name on my passport?] (in Korean).

Some Koreans have told me that for them it is absurd to separate the two syllables of the name.
(Of course, place names are always romanized as one word, as per guidelines of the Korean government)

Why choosing the whole first name written together (Minho) could be problematic and a hyphen (Min-ho) would make it more clear:
For example: the name Ga In. Put together looks like ā€œgainā€, which is also an English word. A hyphen (Ga-in) would clear that misunderstanding.
Another example: Hae In, if written Haein, people would scratch their head, ā€œhow on earth do I pronounce this?ā€.
You would think that a name like Minho doesnā€™t pose any problems, right? For the native English maybe, but donā€™t only think about your own language! Ask a Portuguese person how they pronounce NH! Like ā€œRonaldinhoā€, or the equivalent of the Spanish Ƒ. Not at all what we are looking for!!
Korean of course doesnā€™t have hyphens. But itā€™s because they donā€™t need to! Syllables are neatly written as a cluster of characters, so you definitely know whether a letter in the middle of the word belongs to the first or to the second syllable. There is no possible confusion.
In English and most other non-Asian languages we donā€™t have such a way to clearly visualise the syllable separation. Thatā€™s why, in my opinion, if we choose to change the existing system to having the two syllables of the first name written together, we need a hyphen.
Generally, I believe that the way we romanize should be the one that would enable us, if we so wish, to easily and exactly recreate the Korean original.
Moreover, separating the syllables helps see the generational name (which is the first syllable), the one shared by siblings.
From Wikipedia:

Traditionally, given names are partly determined by generation names, a custom originating in China. One of the two characters in a given name is unique to the individual, while the other is shared by all people in a family generation. In both North and South Koreas, generational names are usually no longer shared by cousins, but are still commonly shared by siblings.

The linguistic details
Given names are typically composed of Hanja, or Chinese characters.
In the case of Hanja-derived names, the given name is linguistically not two syllables but two words.
Since the late 1970s, some parents have given their children names that are native Korean words, usually of two syllables.
Given names of this sort include Ha-neul (ķ•˜ėŠ˜; lit. heaven/sky), Da-som (ė‹¤ģ†œ; lit. love) and Bit-na (ė¹›ė‚˜; lit. to shine) Ah-reum (ģ•„ė¦„; lit. beauty), Sa-rang (ģ‚¬ėž‘; it. love).
Between 2008 and 2015, the proportion of such names among South Korean newborns rose from 3.5% to 7.7%.
If the name is a two-syllable native Korean word like ģ‚¬ėž‘ (Sarang =love or Haneul=sky), there are two syllables in a single word. Therefore, some argue that it doesnā€™t make sense to put a hyphen or a space between the two syllables.
But if the name is taken from two Hanja such as ķ˜„ģ •, there are two Hanja characters and therefore two words, so again it doesnā€™t make sense to put a hyphen between them.
Of course the two Hanja characters are put together coherently to create one concept, a complete meaning. Which is largely a matter of parentā€™s choice, because most hanja-derived Korean syllables can have many different meanings
See an example for the name Chun Hwa (ģ¶˜ķ™”). Depending on how you write the name in hanja, it can have different meanings:

There are four hanja with the reading ā€œchunā€ and 15 hanja with the reading ā€œhwaā€ on the South Korean governmentā€™s official list of hanja which may be used in given names. Some ways of writing this name in hanja include:

  • ꘄ čÆ (ė“„ ģ¶˜ bom chun, ė¹›ė‚  ķ™” binnal hwa): ā€œspring splendourā€
    *ꘄ 花 (ė“„ ģ¶˜ bom chun, ź½ƒ ķ™” ggot hwa): ā€œspring flowerā€

Yes, all this is absolutely true. There are distinctions between hanja-derived names and native Korean names. Yet we cannot expect all translators, editors and especially viewers to know these differences/exceptions. It would be unrealistic and would create more work and confusion.
In my opinion, there should be one standard used for all names consistently.

What is done elsewhere?
Wikipedia uses the syllables separated by hyphens, even for names derived from native Korean words like ā€œSarangā€
We already saw that the Ministry of Exterior recommends not separating the two syllables of a given name with a space.
What about streaming platforms? One (NF) has a hyphen, one (Dputs it all together, some the three syllables separately. There is no consensus
What about the Korean government? As personal names are concerned, they leave two options to the discretion of individuals.
romanization of Korean names

According to the new guideline, the family name will come before the given name. The first letter of the family name and given name will be capitalized. Inserting a hyphen between syllables in the given name will avoid confusion in where they lie.
For example, the name Hong Gil-dong was previously written in various forms, from GILDONG HONG to Hong, Gil dong or HONG GILDONG. Following the new rules, it will now be written Hong Gildong or Hong Gil-dong.
(upload://vS9BgInchNsmAzYyLazXnmlJFmF.jpeg)

The Poll
But what do all of you think about it? You donā€™t need to be an English-language volunteer to vote, or a volunteer at all. What makes the most sense to you, and helps you visually understand better our beloved drama charactersā€™ names?
NOTE: When voting, please donā€™t only think of Lee Min Ho. Do think about the other examples quoted before like Lee Rain or Gain.

  • Lee Min Ho
  • Lee Min-ho
  • Lee Minho
0 voters

Thank you for taking part in the poll!

7 Likes

I recently worked with subtitling in German and this is very new to me, it was required to write (for me for the first name together) so Chail instead like in past Cha Il. I have to agree that for reading us Westerners it changes a lot if itā€™s written together as in opposite divided.

I also think think Koreans have this block writing it should be either divided as I wrote or at least with a dashā€¦ I think itā€™s different where you have single long words that are written as one word.

Also as for writing and reading I find the divide without a dash much easier for typing and the eyes.

Honestly, I think itā€™s just wrong to put an extra space in the middle of a given name, and I would LOVE to toss the extra space away in between the first name! Minho is his name, and itā€™s one word. Min may have an underlying meaning, and Ho may have a separate meaning in Chinese, but his first name is still Minho, not Min.

You donā€™t put a space for a city name like Seo Ul or Bu San, or Seo-ul or Bu-san, even though Bu in Busan also has a separate Chinese character and meaning, as well as San in Busan. Thereā€™s absolutely no reason to put a space in between a name, but a hyphen could be allowed for clarification, only when necessary.

3 Likes

This is the guideline given by Korean Ministry of Cuture, Sports and Tourism, and we should just follow their recommendation of using a given name as ONE WORD, and allow hyphen as needed.

3 Likes

Just for reference and consideration, perhaps. Itā€™s something I found some time ago:
https://www.korean.go.kr/front_eng/roman/roman_01.do (From: National Institute of Korean Language)

POINT 3 (4) "Personal names are written by family name first, followed by a space and the given name. As a rule, syllables in given names are not seperated by hyphen, but it is admitted to use a hyphen between syllables. (Transcription in ( ) is permitted.)

Table for personal names (ėƼģš©ķ•˜, ģ†”ė‚˜ė¦¬)
ėƼģš©ķ•˜ Min Yongha (Min Yong-ha)
ģ†”ė‚˜ė¦¬ Song Nari (Song Na-ri)"

5 Likes

I donā€™t know which moderator from the German community wanted to write the Name Cha Il as Chail, but he/she was wrong! The official version in Germany is Cha-il. For official documents like certificates or a thesis (University) the family name comes first, followed by the given name, both syllables combined with a hyphen ā€œShim Cha-ilā€

1 Like

If the first option is not allowed, then, Iā€™d choose the second one: Lee Min-ho
Alice ^^

1 Like

Itā€™s not that it is ā€œnot allowedā€. We editors are asking the Viki community for their preference.

2 Likes

The English Editing Academy (EEA) poll has closed and ā€œMinhoā€ came out a winner with 48% of the vote, followed by a combination of having no space and using a hyphen as needed at 33%. The EEA pool is a lot smaller with 9 total votes, but EEA is comprised of Korean-English editors, as well as the Chief Editors, and General Edittors.

While this result is different from the result from this thread and that there are lot bigger audience in this thread. I still believe we should follow the official guideline from Korean Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism, which is also the general standard of other platforms.

According to Wikipedia, " South Koreaā€™s Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the government agency issuing passports to its nationals, formally advised its nationals not to put a space in their given names because having a space in a given name can be misunderstood as having first and middle names;[41] the Ministry also gives a chance to remove the space when one already has a space in oneā€™s given name."

The bigger question is, since all Korean contents will come to us, editors, pre-subbed by Vikiā€™s paid subbers, will Viki follow this guideline, and take away the unnecessary extra space in the middle of a given name?

@vikicommunity @brendas

1 Like

Only 9 people voted in the EEA poll out of about 20-30 people involved in the discussion there (I donā€™t know the exact number). Itā€™s hardly a number that Viki can take into account for any changes.
Not that the participation here is anything overwhelming either.
This also means thereā€™s not that much interest in the question, Iā€™m afraid. You and I (and maybe a couple more people) are the only ones who seem to care about it - which is sad.
Something, by the way, also confirmed by personal discussions Iā€™ve been having with other volunteers. Mosot of them said it makes no difference to them.

I donā€™t know about the viewers, but under the volunteers, there are definitely people who care.

2 Likes

I should have noted that out of 9 votes, overwhelming 7 voted for no space in the middle of a given name, except for adding a hyphen in special occasions to clarify name, when necessary.

En FranƧais, nous avons des prƩnoms composƩs comme Anne-Marie ou bien Marc-Antoine et je trouve Ƨa normal de mettre un tirƩ entre les deux prƩnoms

2 Likes

I donā€™t like the hyphen personally and for the other options in depends on the name for me. I find Jaejoong, Junsu and Changmin better then Jae Joong, Jun Su or Chang Min. But in the case of Ga In I find it strange to write it as Gain.

But I also think Korean names can have some issues overseas due the structure. Iā€™m so used hearing the last name first for Koreans but overseas itā€™s the other way around. And it gets even more confusing when their last last name is also part of the other nameā€¦ Canā€™t think of an example right now but I know there are cases like that.

2 Likes

Hello!

I fell that Iā€™m kind of late to this discussion, but I felt the need to comment about it.
First of all, I love how well researched the theme was, and the way it was so carefully explained. Itā€™s clear that you really did put a lot of effort on it. That being said, I agree that is a very relevant and important discussion, eventhough I never saw any post about it.

For me, PERSONALLY, as a person who studies Korean language, having the name written as Lee Minho or Lee Gain doesnā€™t really change the way I understand the pronounce.
But IN A GENERAL itā€™s important to acknowledge the fact that not many people learn the Korean language, so reading and having and a clear idea of the pronunciation doesnā€™t really happen, which is also completely okay. Considering that, for me it seems that writting the name like Lee Hae-in is much better and easier to understand; in this way, it gets more clear which one is the family name and which is the given name, something that I think can be confusing when the name is written like Lee Min Ho, especially with the first letter of the second syllable being capitalized (maybe people could think that the given name is Lee-min and the family name is Ho, it sounds weird when youā€™re familiar with the culture, but itā€™s necessary to have in mind how many people have come to enjoy the dramas without going deeply in other cultural aspects).

I think that, for the sake of the right pronounciation and considering that most people wonā€™t be searching more deeply abou it, the way with a hyphen is the better option. Although it would be lovely to have people more insterested in the language itsefl!

Also, itā€™s real what Irmar said about the pronunciation here in Brasil: when saying the name of Lee Min-ho, one of the characters of Maze Runner, people usually pronounce the NH in Minho the same itā€™s pronounced in the name Ronaldinho (similar to the Spanish Ƒ). Itā€™s kinf of funny to hear that because of the similarity with the Portuguese word ā€œminhaā€ (my/mine - feminine).

Well, I think thatā€™s all I had in mind. Thanks for bringing up such an important aspect and for the great care while writting about it!

3 Likes