I think it's important we address this behaviour as a community

General Discussion
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My point here is not that it’s wrong to hate a character, it’s that it’s harmful especially when all the hate is being diverted to one character (often the female char) and not the male character mostly when they are doing the same thing. While some of these characters are made so we can hate them, I see villains who are heavily praised, for example I was watching Ghost recently and the main villain was SPOILER and somehow he got way more love that the female character who was doing basically not killing anyone. If somehow people can give excuses for serial killers in dramas like Ghost it shoudn’t be so hard to understand a girl who’s hindering your OTP and doing some ridiculous stuff to get her own love story.

I try to see it like this, that second lead female, who’s slapping people and being generally unpleasant, yes she is not likable but she is relatable. People ignore the fact that second lead female characters are go getters, they are often incredibly beautiful, accomplished people. They do terrible stuff, yes but can we acknowledge that AND also acknowledge the fact that a lot of these women are smart, driven people.

I’ll use examples here:

Marriage Not Dating:

  • Sena was a plastic surgeon
  • She was confident in her body
  • She was super intelligent
  • She was kind (as seen in the scene with the child who had a facial distortion)
  • She could be a little childish like the main girl
    But she was reduced to a bitter bitch when that wasn’t all that she was, this is why I am against just hating a character even if they are there to hate.

Heirs

  • Another go-getter
  • Not easily intimidated
  • Harsh but told the hard truths everyone was running away from
  • Charismatic
  • The guy she was meant to marry was running around with another girl so she tried to shut it down, that is a logical response.

I could literally go on forever and ever. These women (the characters) have some amazing accomplishments so when you’re angered by their actions it would be cool to look at the stuff that they do have and they do that isn’t bad. This reduces the hate, it’s easy to see a character as just something there to hate but I feel like there’s way more.

I have no problem if people criticize the make up or the clothes or the looks, you know everyone has a different point of view about beauty and fashion and stuff so, it’s ok if they do it, as long as they do it with respect.

I also get when people criticise makeup or clothes sometimes but most of the time when commenters criticise these things they also crticise the actress not the make up artist, not the costume department. They also don’t say, “I don’t think that colour suits her” or “I don’t like the way they styled her hair” they say things like “She’s looks ugly” “I hate her hair” and that kind of stuff is exhausting to read over and over again.

Also there are times when comments like that aren’t even needed? Like when it makes sense for the character to be wearing those clothes. Sometimes an actress will be delivering the best scene of her career and the comments will be like all about her appearance, this guts me because the importance is put on her appearance and not the quality of her work. I hope this wasn’t too long.

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I think there are two problems.

  1. People think they can say everything they want because they hide behind a screen.
  2. Girls can be really mean among them, I think it’s a mix between jealousy and stupidity… :stuck_out_tongue:
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They are simply immature…

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I totally agree with you!
Otherwise, if I look at a drama, I don’t care about comments, it just clicked in for x, and voila, I see more. Double benefit.

If anyone’s interested, feel free to take a look in the comments, when someone annoys click the x.

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I agree. People sometimes are just too blinded by a certain actor that they’ll just find a way to justify whatever that actor or actress does just because they are handsome or too famous or so… I wonder… if these actors did these kind of actions in real life, like, you know, killing and stuff, would their fans still “support them”? I mean support their behavior? hmmm Thanks god they are just acting and most of them (I want to believe) are good people in real life. :smiley:

Yes, it is frustrating when there are more evil characters (male characters) in a drama doing evil things, but he girl is the one receiving all the hate… People is immature.

About the examples, I think that in those dramas the villains were not that evil if you compare them to other villains out there but they are placed in a drama which their “evilness” is bad enough to make people hate them. They did had good reasons to do whatever they did but every villain has a reason behind their actions and yes! they are smart-written characters but people won’t look at them in an objective way because they’re not real people, they’re just characters and they’re supposed to be the “evil ones we all should hate” lol I know how it sounds but it’s how it is… Sadly, because this leads to hateful comments about the actors behind the characters.

What I mean is that I don’t expect people to look at these characters in a objectively way, I don’t expect them to look at their good sides because they’re not supposed to do it and they just won’t. Not saying I don’t do it, I don’t hate blindly a certain character just because they’re meant to be the villains of the drama, but most people do. And I think is not totally wrong, they have the right to do it as long as they respect!

I wish everyone could understand these characters too and don’t write whatever just because they have so much hate inside of them…We have no right to bully an actor or an actress, never! We should stop these kind of comments by commenting too!

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Had a hard time to find this one back (the research function on the forum would need some improvement, also for new subbers who look for their way in topics. To find this back, got to type “I don’t like her hair…”).

Interesting topic and point of views.

It’s where freedom of expression vs. censorship frontiers could be blurred/blurry.
5 years ago or today?

To echo you:

Self awareness vs. police patrol
People know, the question is: do they care?

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if you cant say anything good about anyone or anything, don’t say anything at all!

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Trump is really challenging me in that department.

@piranna, I think the verbal violence towards actresses or female characters in dramas on Viki reflects more of a society norm than a problem with Viki.

@aetling, I’m sorry I haven’t fully appreciated your post at the time it was written, but your points are so on spot and so well put, I just have to say :clap::clap::clap::raised_hands:

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:+1: Not thinking the contrary!

I liked the topic.
The answers she got talked about Viki, as a remedy.
She didn’t talk about the remedy or Viki’s assistance or volunteers’ moderating tools (as the policy patrol), but about the root: behaviors of commenters.

I wanted to add:

  • We can’t censor everything: where are the limits between freedom of expression and what can be said (and in the contrary: censored)?
    If I censor 'I don’t like her hair", is it against the freedom of expression or is it because of protecting the actress by censoring it? Or did I misinterpret the author of the post: she didn’t mean it against the actress.

Which comments are considered not necessary by whom?
Comments that are not appreciative?
Comments that are not mentioning “I don’t like how the staff styled her hair?”
Must every comment have added value?
“I like her hair”?

  • Self-awareness: her idea.
    It’s a very good idea, when everyone is responsible and educated.
    My answer:
    Some people know and they don’t care (aka comments on dramas, people still ask for subs, still whine, still review before it begins…)

That is why sometimes, the police patrol (Viki or us) is the answer to this lack of self-awareness.
But… back to point 1: we can’t censor everything.

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@piranna Yes, indeed it is a fine line between freedom/censorship. I agree with you and always appreciate your in-depth comments. Thank you, I’m glad this topic was revived as the plague of cruel (etc.) commenting on Viki continues.

Specifically regarding the disparaging personal comments aimed at actors/actresses, when questioning if a comment should be removed, perhaps one could consider whether or not, if they were that person receiving the comment, would they consider the remark as derogatory or even as bullying? (Here is another issue plaguing our society of late, utter lack of empathy, putting oneself in another’s shoes).

For example, if someone said (wrote) to “Actress A”: “You are ugly and fat” “You don’t deserve the leading male” “You can’t act” “You look plastic, stop with the surgery” and so forth, I believe that could definitely be considered bullying. Allowing that type of derogatory commenting further fuels other user’s negativity (herd mentality) and promotes that bullying is acceptable.

Verbal bullying should not be acceptable on Viki

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I often get lost in my comments (so long that some of my friends told me they didn’t read it :joy:, I don’t mind!), I deviate from the original topic because the person’s answer made me thought of something else until Irmar reminds me of that, or it’s too general and people don’t get what I mean, or people and I get angry at each other, it’s another story :sweat_smile:

Love that it’s from each other interaction that people on the forum can think deeper into a subject. It’s like collective thinking or sharing? Because we dig deeper into other ideas and find new ideas thanks to previous comments.
It’s like the other time when we were talking with Irmar, you discuss about something, then you discuss about something else, then a new topic is born.

Likz Hop-o’-My-Thumb and his bread crumbs?

But I could be just telling my opinion, that is why I prefer to say “in my opinion” = subjective and only my pov or I check before or edit or saying when I couldn’t check it thoroughly or being lazy to check “I’m not sure.”
And I could be wrong: that is why the forum is useful because Irmar for ex would give me an answer that proves me that what I thought impossible is possible. I also learn with everyone!

Yes, to protect someone from bullying or everything closed to the person’s integrity?
:thinking: It could be really difficult for someone to tell the difference between bullying (harassing, for real) and criticizing/bad review. How the other sees it.
The past also could explain why someone could be sensitive over some words, music or scenes, like a trauma and the person will feel automatically victimized for ex, when that person feels like people are looking at them, that person could feel “they are looking down on me” whereas it’s not the case.

But even without a trauma, it could be just a misunderstanding for ex “I don’t like her hair” could be the simplification of “I don’t like the character’s hair” and not the actress’ hair?
Well, no misunderstanding with some of the sentences you said.

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Freedom of expression vs. freedom of speech…the age old question! Freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom of consequence of the certain speech, and if that means that the comment gets deleted, then so be it. People should self-regulate themselves, which is hard, I know.

When I’m tempted to say something negative about a character’s appearance, I remember that the character is an actor, and then I ask myself, “would I say this to their face? What if I knew the actor as a person, then would I make negative comments about how they look? And in regards to the plastic surgery, what if I was the one who had plastic surgery done on me? Do I want people to start judging me?” By the time I’m done with asking myself these questions, I am thoroughly chagrined and I drop the negative thought. In fact, actors and actresses have a great amount of courage to be filmed and have their faces be shown throughout the country.

In regards to comments that negatively discuss the appearance of the actors, I think that they should be removed especially if they are in the Timed Comments. It’s distracting to the watcher, even though the Timed Comments could be turned off. But there is the question of who wants to go through and be a ‘censor’ person…

I’m watching a Tdrama called Zhong Wu Yan, and the female lead actually told off some girls about the exact same thing. The female lead said that some men aren’t the only ones perpetuating the toxic idea that external beauty is the definition of succes, but women also perpetuate that idea. They are harsher on their own sex when they should sympathize with them instead.

I think it’s because we also feel insecure about our personal appearance, so we might reflect that on other women because we don’t feel perfect. I don’t wear makeup just to remind myself that I don’t need to find external validation, because I do sometimes sigh and wish that I was prettier, but then I am reminded that it is internal beauty that counts, and that I need to work on bettering myself as a person.

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This discussion reminded me of a poem by Maya Angelou, “Phenomenal Woman.” I was introduced to it through my English 102 class, and I think that it is beautiful in that the speaker embraces who she is.

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I think we have every right to criticize an actor’s work or styling.
We can say “his acting is terrible, he’s so wooden” or “he only has three expressions total”. And I believe we should be free to say these things, in a civilized way, without insulting. I’ve written something on those lines about Cha Eun Woo when I saw “My ID is Gangnam Beauty”. I also made sure to add that I hope he decides to take acting lessons and work on it, because he’s otherwise likeable and he could have a very nice career, so I wish him well for his future.
Because I always assume that the person might read the comment; so I want, together with the honest feedback, to include something constructive and warm.
I was less warm when I watched “Secret Romance”, though. The guy is hopeless, he’s had plenty of chances and plenty of experience, and hasn’t been improving a single bit.

Too plain for the role
Or one can say “this person is not suitable for the role” Not personal things, though, like saying s/he’s ugly.
Sometimes, when the role is supposed to be very pretty, one can say “her looks are not suitable for the character”. Which of course means she’s not beautiful enough for this character who is specifically supposed to be beautiful and admired by other characters in the drama. But it’s said in a tasteful way that implies that if it were a different character, her looks would be perfectly okay.
I’m thinking of the recent “Emma” right now. They chose an actress who looks good in modern clothes, but her face is too modern for the role, and in period clothes she looks positively ugly, with the spinsterish bony face and long nose. She would never be called beautiful in Jane Austen’s time. Her young friend, even worse. Harriet is said to have a mediocre brain but definitely her good looks would attract a man, but the actress is very plain, she wouldn’t be called pretty or attractive in any era. Why choose her? Toni Collette was perfect, because she has this placidity and good nature.
Same with the recent Little Women. Amy is supposed to be pretty, dainty and fashionable but, what? They put a chubby actress who looks like an Austrian milkmaid?
I have written once (not a literal quote) about a k-drama: “With the actress they chose and the styling on her, one doesn’t understand how four perfectly fine young men are all heads over heels with her. I get it that they fell for her inner qualities, but even then it’s too far-fetched, so I believe it wasn’t an appropriate choice.”

Plastic surgery?
There are a number of actresses who really overdo it, and - although I won’t be the one to write it - it is not a bad think that the viewers express their dislike of such extreme measures and unnatural faces, as a deterrent to other actors or idols who are thinking of doing it.
As an editor, whenever I see something offensive and personal like “You’re ugly, ewww”, I immediately delete it. Sometimes the commenters are carried away by their dislike of the second female lead, or any other negative character: remember the Joseon guy with the bad teeth in “Legend of the Blue Sea”? He is a good actor, he played the villain very convincingly and he didn’t deserve to read words like “gross” and “barf” whenever his face came up. I deleted all of them.

There’s a reason why female characters are bashed more
I don’t agree at all with the first poster that people unfairly bash female second leads although the male leads do similar things. No they don’t do the same things! In k-drama, at least, the male second lead is more often than not a sweet and loving guy who gives you “second lead syndrome” and, even if he initially opposes the main couple and may do something to stop their romance, it’s never very mean, and at the end he becomes magnanimous and sends the one to the other Sweet Stranger in My House is an example of this. (The only exception that stands out I can think of is in Temperature of Love, where the second lead’s behaviour is despicable and obsessive) Whereas the female second lead 95% of the times is really, like really bitchy.
So the ones who are unfair and biased are first and foremost the writers! Who know very well that their mostly female or gay audience loves to have two awesome men to fall for.

What about idiotic heroines?
I also blame the writers for making the female lead clueless and idiotic airheads. We call them stupid because they are written as stupid. In addition to the usual traits which we also find in men, like misunderstanding stuff (like hearing half a conversation), not stopping to talk it out and clear things up, and ultimately playing noble idiot.
The male leads may be aloof and cold at the beginning, but we immediately see that they have a mommy-daddy trauma or traumatic kidnapping experience in their childhood, or a super-rare disease, so this makes us more sympathetic. But female leads tend to be fluffy, bubbly cheerful, good-hearted, compassionate and hard-working but also nosy, clumsy, making all the wrong decisions until the very last episode, their actions cringe-worthy. Sometimes they make me ashamed of being a woman. (She Was Pretty and Undateables are good examples of this). Maybe that’s the East Asian ideal woman?
That’s one of the reasons why we all enjoyed Hotel del Luna so much, because the female lead there was smashing awesome.
Secretary Kim, Madame Antoine and a few others are also good examples of strong women leads, as well as the heroines of Search:WWW. Others start as strong and spunky and end up wishy-washy and stupid when they fall in love, ruining our good first impression.
When we criticize a character and say “Is she stupid? Why on earth did she do that?”, of course we are not referring to the actress! The actress “did” what the script said, it was her character who’s written like that. The writers need to know that the public, at least the international public, who is also a paying customer, has evolved, and needs a different kind of heroine.
Yes, there are viewers who criticize the women and are lenient to the men when they do similarly bad things. But it’s also written into the script. They the characters are written in a way that strongly encourages this.

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This is the first time, I read about Ha Ji Won having a plastic surgery. Recently I watched “Chocolate” with her as the female lead and I was surprised, that she didn’t change a bit from her days in “Secret Garden”. So I can’t understand you complaint :slight_smile:

If you talk about her sad eyes, yes, she has a sad expression, but did you forget her huge loss? Her little brother Jeon Tae Soo committed suicide two years ago and “Chocolate” was her comeback drama. Her character in this drama is more serious and she barely smiles and laughs, since this fits her role. But in the few scenes, where she laughs you can find her heartwarming and beautiful laughter back. Maybe you should watch this drama :))

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Women indeed are far more likely to criticise other women than other men. Men are also more likely to criticise women than to criticise men. This has been objectively measured in multiple studies.

It’s a very old and rather idiotic way our society functions at the moment. And in order to fix it we first have to be made aware of it.

You are probably right that women in dramas are written poorly. But the truth of the matter is, even if they were written well, they would still be bashed upon more often than men.

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Just go and read the comments in Hotel del Luna. And in Search:WWW. All the comments are admiring of the women and express joy that finally there are well-written, intelligent characters, who are not less feminine because of being dynamic and successful. There is a point, towards the end, where they make the main woman behave in a real stupid and defeatist way (I can’t say more for fear of spoiling), and then yes, she’s criticized. But then all ended well so we sort of forgave her.
In Melo is My Nature, the female lead is highly unlikeable, so yeah, she was criticized, but rightly so in my opinion. The male lead was criticized too, mainly because of his looks, he’s not only plain but definitely very chubby, but mostly everyone criticized that his character had no evolution whatsoever. He was criticized more than the female lead.

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I did my homework, too :slight_smile:
This is from Secret Garden (one of my favorite dramas ever)

And this is a photo medly from Chocolate:

I’m sorry, but I can’t find any difference indicating a plastic surgery. There are ten years between both photos and you can see, that she’s not that young girl anymore.

And I’m sorry, if my choice of word bothers you, it wasn’t meant negative. Concerning “Chocolate” I really love this drama, I cried a lot and in the next second I laughed so hard, a roller coaster of emotions. But for me one of the best dramas in 2019. :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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I’m very sorry for your loss! :sob:

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WWW just happens to be my favorite drama of last year. I’ve come to realize that people who watch because they like these types of dramas, such as WWW, are very different from people who for example watch “Cinderella and the Four Knights” or “Secret Romance” or any other romantic fluff. The two series genres have two different types of audience and two different responses to female characters.

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