I noticed lately that some Channel Managers are thinking: having a “CM position” means “I can do what I want.” Let’s not forget that even if CMs come from all around the world and speak different languages, they should not abuse their power. If one is not an English native or hasn’t a bilingual English level (with experience in ENGLISH editing), one should not edit in English just because one is CM himself. I have seen several CMs without English abilities (with no experience, and no right to do so), allowing themselves to do English editions lately. And I think it’s power abuse. Should we report it as abuse of power to Viki staff members?
Here are the rules for Channel Managing:
While reading those rules again, one paragraph remains ambiguous: “Channel Managers are responsible for recruiting a channel team, overseeing the quality of subtitles…”
I think we can reach a consensus to say that a channel manager isn’t responsible for overseeing subtitles’ quality, whether for English or other languages. Each person has a role in accordance with his language abilities. The team responsible for English subtitles’ quality is the English team (TE, GE, CE). The same goes for other languages, editors are overseeing subtitles.
STILL, it’s true that a moderator must check subtitles’ quality and editors’ abilities. The same goes for the channel manager, he must ensure English progress and recruit capable people. If a CM doesn’t have English abilities (with experience), can he bear this responsibility?
As said, his responsibility is to ensure English and other languages complete editions. I also know some channels are not progressing in English for several reasons. But sometimes, it’s because of CMs themselves. They are not recruiting or involving themselves. In these moments and after some time/delay, shouldn’t Viki take responsibility by sending some of their English subbers to complete this project in English? Or maybe Viki should decide to assign another CM after some time with no progress in English?
This seems like a recent issue in correlation with Viki’s newest system on appointing either untrustworthy/new CMs or CMs already having a hard time handling another channel.
PS: “adding a translation of the Channel Description and Channel Title in another language” should be removed. Maybe Viki staff should update general rules? @mariliam@jeslynl@giant_sean
I only noticed that since Viki is selecting the CM there are a bunch of new CM’s which I think is a good thing so nobody gets overworked and more people get the chance to manage a channel.
I noticed that some new CM’s don’t have a clue how we work though (seggers, English subbers and editors) and want to invent the wheel again if you understand what I mean. Which isn’t a bad thing because there is always room for improvement.
But sometimes those changes seem a bit unlogic to me as a veteran on Viki. So sometimes I PM them with advice and explain how we usually work so they can take that into consideration. Some are glad I PMed and they change some things, others stick to their own idea and wants us all to follow that. No problem if that’s what you want… As long as the CM doesn’t want to control me as if they are my boss.
Once a CM was really upset and angry at me because I did something I usually do but she didn’t want me to do it. Which she didn’t make clear so I had no idea that what I did was wrong. That CM went so far that she deleted all English subs from subbers who already started before she notified them.
So when I see there is a new CM on a project and I get invited I always ask how they plan to manage and what they expect me to do even though I know the drill after so many years.
The one grey area is who sends the messages to notify English subbers to start work after the segmenting is finished and the messages to notify Other Language mods that the English edition is finished.
The first one to know whether the segmenting is over is the Chief Segmenter. And the Chief English Editor is the one who knows first whether the editing is complete. So it makes sense to save time by directly notifying the concerned parties. Whereas notifying the CM who then notifies everybody adds one step and potentially hours get wasted in case the CM is away at work, school or sleep at that time because of different time zones.
For instance, if the Chief Editor as well as the main Other Languages (I mean the ones with more impatient and insistent fans, i.e. Spanish and Portuguese) are in America, in the same time zone, whereas the CM is in Europe, it makes sense that they communicate directly, because the CM will be most likely sleeping when it’s daytime for them.
However, some CMs insist on it and fight tooth and nail to preserve their privilege. Which is understandable, because, let’s be frank, after all the recruiting is done, apart from checking who is completing their language in a timely manner, there’s nothing else for the CM to do if it weren’t for the messages, and it’s natural that they feel redundant.
(Not to mention the so-called English moderator, who really really has nothing to do at all)
Be it as it may, when I am Editor, I make sure to talk about this matter with the CM beforehand and weigh the pros and the cons together. Good communication and clear rules upfront make for a peaceful collaboration.
Yes, when I saw the ep was up I notified seggers and started segging right away and when I was done with part 6 I was like let’s pm the subbers and editors because I didn’t know if the CM was around. That was so wrong of me because I had to PM the English mod and the English mod will do the notification.
We where not even allowed to add our team credit and episode numbers because that wasn’t our job. That 1% could confuse viewers or something.
After the incident I decided to ask new CM’s unless I assume they know how we work as I worked with them before. And at times I decide to just watch and not help out…
Back to the subject and the core of your concerns, it converges with:
And the call we got last time back in September (if I remember correctly) with Viki.
2 things: inactivity and incompetencies.
Both are abusing activities.
1. Inactivity that led some of us to the bot:
We defended at the same time people who were truly inactive on their dramas (either CM, either the French mod, either the English team) and people who were active.
I’m not going to pay for someone else’s inactivity. I don’t see why.
Inactivity?
Not being present on a drama to complete it and edit it before some time.
Some time is in some people’s mind = before the 1 year’s anniversary.
I don’t take into account exceptional cases (exceptional not common).
2. Lack of quality = incompetency?
Incompetency for Mods and CMs?
being inactive while knowing the job description?
being inactive and making others take responsibility for their inactivity?
knowing Viki rules but not respecting them and still keeping the same way of doing things that goes against the policy?
accepting a job we don’t have the qualifications for or recruiting a moderator/keeping him while having evidence they don’t have the qualifications to do it alone?
assessing oneself = us or someone not thoroughly?
I think most of us are not children anymore.
If someone is not able to assess her/his own skills while taking an important role such as CM or moderator (the Viki guidelines are clear on they’re in charge of the quality, CM and mods): report and ask Viki to do something.
My pov:
They made a wrong move in picking CMs like that, because they let opened doors to abusers in being too lenient on the criteria to pick CMs.
Not only in managing, they allowed abusers in moderating (after effect).
Quality will be probably dead on Viki because people don’t run after quality (even Viki… bot), they run after “I was in…”, “I was mod in…”, “I did 500 dramas…”, “I managed…”
Ego, fame, self accomplishment to boost self confidence… whatever name people want to call it, is it coming back to the same?
And what about these dramas?
If they had their own voice, what would they say…
Thank you or?
I find it really a pity that some people don’t respect these dramas or say they like the stories or the actors or they want to contribute for the audience or they dare to talk about quality, when themselves don’t even take time to put or check quality in their own dramas. Talks vs acts
I understand your call in: “Please, respect these dramas and the audience.”
Or “don’t just see them like objects you can collect for yourself?”
Echo to someone else’s post:
Self awareness vs. police patrol
People know, the question is: do they care?
If they don’t care, why then agree with Viki conditions or using the website like that?
If they don’t respect Viki policy, then something should be done by Viki?
–
Also, the thrill to be selected and the attention gathered, a consequence of it.
The thrill or the privilege to be selected on a popular-trendy drama, to be picked over everyone else who asked for it, then to be requested to participate by moderators to build the team.
The rush of adredaline, dopamine?
Being the attention center that results from being selected? Notice me?
Once the thrill of the “beginning” is gone (it never lasts long, brain system or life is like that?), people let this down and look elsewhere, on the hunt for the next thrill, something new to prove they can, they are able to, they are what they are not yet? A sort of accomplishment?
The pursuit of happiness? Attention craving? Filling something they don’t have in their real life?
What is this called? Is it a sign of their unhappiness in their real life, conscious or unconscious?
Or a sign they don’t care enough, their light feelings?
If we could open brains and discover what people think, to understand behaviors, explain why some people would give up after the first rushes or wouldn’t give enough care on dramas they moderate/manage and we thought they would care about because they asked for it… It enters the psychology field, your field.
Strangers of their brains can only look at the results or bear the consequences when participating in the same team or if we’re viewers. I don’t understand why we should bear the consequences for this? It’s not our job to take responsibility for someone else’s absence, incompetencies or unreliability or external problems. We can be understanding when given some reasonable reasons, but there’s a limit to stick to one’s role for one’s interest only and forgetting about the Viki policy or team/drama’s interest.
Dramas are not socks! Have some respect!
Any true fan / volunteer would say: they deserve to be cared about, especially by the channel manager and moderators! What’s their role otherwise?
I totally agree with you. Viki should always remember these rules or support new CMs, or even new contributors. Because indeed, we can see some CM lost, quickly abandoning their “responsibilities”. Often, they don’t know what’s being a CM means before propose their help. They don’t know who contact for asking help,or they don’t contact anyone. They may not even know how viki really works. They do what they can and it’s really their credit, clapping for sure. And if some people like you try to help these new CMs, it’s really a blessing. It’s quite good, but it’s not like that for every drama with new CM. Finally, it becomes difficult for everyone. Maybe viki should try to help more, explain more what CMs should do, with possible contacts (from some contributors), to support new CMs when they assign them.
Regarding a team’s functioning. I agree, everyone does as they want and sometimes it may seem absurd to us because we are used to it differently. I don’t think that’s a problem, only they need to respect everyone and don’t override their rights.
Which comes back to my main question in this topic, not to mention new CMs, new contributors: Can CMs do what they want and modify English translation / editing as they want, without having the skills required? Does this not override their rights, since it has to do with quality? Imagine. Tomorrow, I become CM and I see some Korean-English translations are missing on my drama, with my basic level in Korean, can I allow myself to complete these sentences with some help from elsewhere or not? Or if I see English edition is not progressing well, no one is there to do it, then should I fill this place and do it myself? Should I supervise the work of English editors? (English editors, where are you? Please answer this question. Would you like that? Me, behind you in edition?) Is this not to abuse my power, under a good action disguise? (My skills in Korean and English are too basic to be able to do it, by the way).
And for those without english editors (TE or GE, CE)… I know that it’s sometimes difficult to find people to do the work, but I don’t think that CM doing it without ability is THE only solution. This is the only message I would like to transmit here. I guess that the day these behaviors will affect English editors themselves on popular dramas, we will take more seriously what can happen today.
I think that some are not aware of it. I also think that some people know it, but they don’t care. They still want to do it.
I don’t know if taking a place that isn’t ours is related to these two things. Don’t really have opinion on this.
I do not know if it is a bad move but actually, on the other hand, it is true that some abusers are CM. Viki pursues abusers, but authorizes them to become CM? It is illogical. Viki should perhaps be more careful when they choose either CM or moderators, by the way. Otherwise, risks can be significant for these dramas.
I think it depends on each personality. Those who talk about quality and worry about it, they care. As for the vast majority of viki, they don’t care. And we already see it with moderators who never edit their projects.
Some folks compete for the positions of CMs or Moderators with the intention of becoming “the boss”, not to do actually the work and good work. Those who nourish their ego in such way, are usually the least competent leaders, the least inspiring, the least team-savvy and the most difficult to work with.
people can afford to let the quality down. Imagine all channels with new CMs or each time we have new CMs, we will let it pass because they are new. And so they will learn what like that? The wrong way or the correct way?
Some new CMs will head straight into the wall, whereas some new CMs will succeed. What’s the difference between them? They can make it, too. What did you do when you first managed your channel?
someone can let the quality down or let the drama being inactive, or recruiting anyone for important roles or not recruiting (editors, native editors…).
Okay, someone can be new. It’s fine, anyone can have his chance.
What is not fine is: not taking this opportunity, this first time to look for info, to learn or to ask for help or to try to do things correctly and let the drama go with the wind.
Why not asking someone to be co-CM?
Why did she/he ask to manage if not to learn?
Do you apply for a job without looking for information or job descriptions?
Do you apply for something you don’t know what you will do?
The question is:
Would anyone pick someone who doesn’t know what a CM does or a moderator does? Would anyone pick someone who doesn’t know and who will not look for info on it or ask?
the nssa guide for roles… to be CM, ppl have a certain number of subs or segments.
To have this certain number of subs or segments, ppl have been introduced to nssa guides (normally).
There is one guide of nssa for roles: https://nssacademy.weebly.com/channel-roles-guide.html
If they don’t take time to read guides (what’s the use of these guides? Why people made them?) or ask, then they can’t expect to understand or do things properly.
Once the first-second time is gone, I will think that they’re operational and know everything a CM should know about.
Being new is an excuse that only works for the 1st-second time and doesn’t mean she/he should not take responsibility for a drama once it is done (badly). She/he can come back, recruit someone, check… It’s also the CM’s responsibility to correct what is not correct = quality.
– Not new volunteers
The problem is some CM/moderators are not new and still, this problem is met on channels where we shouldn’t meet this sort of issue.
Everyone can assess that they met not new volunteers and who did an uncomplete job as CMs or moderators.
There’s no one who is controlling or checking on some channels. It’s incredible that this situation could happen on Viki. It means we could do whatever we want, I could subtitle like I want, I could subtitle in Lithuanian, I could proclaim myself a Japanese editor, I would have no problem with Viki…
What’s the use of these rules? They could be here or not here, it would be the same!
If we believe everything anyone told us, we would be called fools or naïve.
That is why someone could be talking about quality and seems to worry about it since she or he talks about it, but it doesn’t mean she or he applies the same thing she or he says to her or his own dramas.
Quality is restrictive and picky: either it’s quality, either it’s not.
Only caring for quality is not enough.
Only wanting quality is not enough.
Only talking about it is not enough.
Only planning for it is not enough.
Caring, wanting, planning some time, being able to do it (skills, team skills and time), being able to assess skills (“I have the ability to do it”/ “I don’t have the ability with my level.”) and doing it.
If you skip everything before:
“I’m doing it”, but people didn’t check about skills, then it’s doing it without doing it.
It’s in that I’m saying:
Quality is restrictive and picky: either it’s quality, either it’s not.
It’s the same for managing/moderating or anything in life:
just talking about it, wanting it or wishing for it is not enough.
I wanted to add that:
CMs have normally recruited competent editors to rely on.
Editors are supposed to be the last checkers of quality
= so in my mind, they have to be people who know the language the most in every aspect, like conjugation, grammar, style, spelling, expressions (= native ones most of the time or someone who knows the language very fluently: very fluently would be either a real test could assess it, either a diploma, either an objective native’s correction could assess it, either they’re editors under training and under the supervision of a “sensei” who is the person who is very fluent).
If the CM has the same qualities as an editor (what is said above), then he has the ability (the ability, now to really do it, it’s something else).
The only case where it would be “fine” to edit it directly would be: a mistake that even someone who is not a native could spot like a typo or a missing question mark…
Even so, I think communication is the best, because editors could take it badly, there could be no mistake or editors would be more cautious about typos.
It’s important to separate tasks in a channel, even in real life: to have more than 1 pair of eyes. At least, someone who has a good pair of eyes and ability.
Because:
the one who does the subtitles can miss something or doesn’t know everything or didn’t follow the team notes for a few instances or didn’t subtitle previous parts to understand fully the part they’re subbing
after subtitling some parts or after real-life work, someone’s mind is not fresh and we tend to make more mistakes (just natural)
from anyone’s experience: feedback from other languages subbers/moderators tells a lot. There’s always some feedback after subbing from other languages and even sometimes from viewers.
Reliable editors are very important.
It’s like publishing a book without reviewing it or selling a product without testing it or jumping without a parachute or safety gear.
You know, I’ve been working here mainly as Italian & Greek moderator and English editor.
I’ve recently been made CM of a coming-soon drama.
On that day, cgwm808, a senior Chief Editor I’ve been working under, wrote to me asking if I needed her as an editor. It goes without saying, I gave her the Chief Editor position and I appointed myself General English editor at her side. As soon as someone better than me asked, I jumped at the chance, because this is best for the drama.
And when I was Chief Editor in “My Mister”, knowing that, however good my English may be, I’m not a native, I appointed moreugesseo, a native English professional real-life editor to check the released episodes after me, as a second pair of eyes, in case something had slipped through.
I always think that it’s obvious we all do whatever is for the best end result, and that we know our own strengths and weaknesses. However, from what I’m reading here, some CMs let the “glory” of the position go to their head like Champagne bubbles.
It’s like the assessment you were talking about for the academy with the entrance exam or the difficulty to assess oneself in subbing.
In editing, it’s the same case.
Sometimes people don’t know their ability or they underestimate the difficulty or their ability.
I can understand that the good will is there, but motivation is not enough to edit, or else we would all be able to be editors.
Sometimes we have to look at the situation and think what is best for the drama or the team, even if it means we were wrong at the beginning.
It doesn’t matter who is wrong or right, what’s important is that the sub is correct.
In that, team feedback is important.
I’m not ashamed when a moderator tells me that there’s a typo or there’s a part of the sub missing.
But I would think about it over and over if the sub is not complete or incorrect and I know it and I let it like that.
Like it’s itching.
(You don’t need to test the waters, it is safe)
(I wanted to ask how it went for your Korean test, but it’s not the right topic…)
Yes I’m a pro active CM aswell and when I get a channel I appoint myself as a segger too. And I never see myself as ‘the boss’ but more a person who checks if everything is going fine and someone the team can PM if there are some issues, who nags Viki from time to time for the team.
And to me a good CM is someone who does ask for help when needed. My Korean knowledge is absolute beginner so how am I supposed to check if someone is good enough at Korean to be able to sub? As for editing, if needed I could do it I guess but I’m not a native. So I ask someone else to do the recruitment for editing and Korean - English subs to make sure the quality will meet our standards.
Now I have one CM project where I cannot segment myself as the eps are still on coming soon at uploading time. It’s so not me to only look while others are working hard. And I felt bad about it at first because I’m a pro active CM. But at the same time it’s good to see everything still is going smoothly without me.
I wanted to add that: