not Viki
S1+S2 ”Papa & Daddy”
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There is a huge difference in portraying something and showing how wrong it is, and the devastating effects it has on the victim, and in portraying it as an act of love, which the victim ultimately enjoys a lot, the experience leading to a passionate and romantic love story. Which is the case in typical Asian BL. I fail to understand how this can be termed “carrying out educational work”; in fact I believe it’s just the opposite!
Think, for instance, of the 1988 movie “The Accused”, with Jodie Foster. It did show the whole thing, but it also made a strong point that, no matter how drunk or how flirty the victim was, no matter how short her dress, still “no” is “no”, even at the last minute. That was gripping, wonderfully acted (which most BL’s are NOT), and yes, educational as well. It made people think and the issue was widely discussed - I think it contributed to the whole “consent” discussion that led us to today’s general attitude about the subject.
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@irmar
You raised important psychological aspects, I’m glad, that means dialogue, that means communication. I hope that the language barrier will not create problems for me to be understood.
To violently force someone to do something where the feelings are not mutual, does not imply pleasure for the one forced.
Rushing/forcing the acceptance of feelings, where there is attraction (at least minimal on the part of the forced), is still a forced act.
Therefore, through communication, proving the sincerity of feelings through deeds and ethical behavior is a better way…
Regarding the love stories you refer to, the circumstances, the conflicting psychological states of the protagonists, the truthfulness of the feelings, the reciprocity of the final attraction / confirmation and acceptance as a partner after the forced act, the negative side of the forced act is always emphasized/marked.
The clear message is that: not violence, forcing, coercion is the way to acceptance.
Thank you for your comment. 
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Those have not always been that accurate on Viki. I remember a drama here that used to be labeled PG-13 but still had a r.ape and abortion in it.
Also, in most countries, this systems lacks symbols for what exactly makes a show have a certain age rate, like we have in The Netherlands. About Kijkwijzer
Absolutely. There’s even a book entirely devoted to that topic.
Indeed, a huge difference.
There is also a difference between the r.ape happening before there is any sign of attraction and the assault just magically turns into “love” or the r.ape happening when there already are mutual feelings. In the last case, it’s still r.ape, but it can lead to a lot of confusion and maybe even forgiving in the end, while in the first case the boundaries between good and evil are completely clear.
I saw it many years ago. Can’t say it was a pleasure to watch… 
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Hm, no, the negative side is not always emphasized. It’s somehow brushed over, in my view.
How was the name of that series (quite well-made otherwise), where one of the leads had the name of a car? Oh yes, Porsche.
There, almost immediately after the forced act, the love relationship started. He somehow apologized, and after a little pouting, all was sweet and well. There was another drama too, but I don’t remember the title, because it was years ago. And every single article I read about the matter laments this question, so it’s not only me and another few people who have noticed.
Interestingly, it’s not a theme or trope in straight Asian dramas. You may see two people getting drunk, having a one-night stand (sometimes resulting in pregnancy) and then falling in love, but forced sex, never.
No but there was satisfaction at the end, the person was vindicated and a precedent was set. Also about the responsibility of onlookers, which is an important issue as well. The film, as I wrote before, helped clear up the matter in the minds of lots of people who were victim-blaming women for being flirty or dressing inappropriately etc. It made a huge stir back then, and that’s why I think it had a social importance.
(Of course I’m always the one to point out that one should avoid putting oneself in harm’s way by being a more careful in dress, behavior and drinking than many girls are nowadays. But this doesn’t condone in any way the offender or lessen his responsibility of his actions. It’s just saying “you know this may happen, and being in the right won’t bring you consolation, even his punishment won’t bring you consolation, nor erase what has happened, so please be careful and aware to help avoid it happening in the first place” I know that men have also been doing this to women who behave and dress prudently and don’t provoke in the least. But still, let’s put all the odds in our favour, no?)
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In these cases, if the message is not well outlined or at least induced subliminally, there are high chances that the perception will be to everyone’s liking, depending on the individual emotional intelligence, and may lead to erroneous interpretations.
The most commented series, in my opinion. With a lot of psychological typologies and a daring directorial approach, it was ”eviscerated” by fans of the genre and not only.I admit that I was one of the few who were in favor of viewing it by young people over 18 years old, but the age limit was set at over 21 years old due to the violent scenes, others very explicit, etc . However, I had to, but it was still nice, debate it with my young people in search of strengths.
It is up to everyone to discover the good and bad parts in what they visualize and applying the principle of the ethics of reciprocity to lead their lives as they choose.
Thanks for your opinions. 
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No, I am not against BL dramas, on the contrary, I was wrongly understood, as for the ones shown above, I can say that I am a little disappointed because I expected more opinions, knowing that there are many people who have the information, they have seen numerous dramas, manga, anime, etc. and who know the difference and who could have brought many aspects/themes to the discussion, but I assume that their time is precious, but I hope they can bring their opinions in the future discussions - on various aspects (as varied as possible all the better). In this sense, @irmar I thank you for writing and I hope you will continue to do so.
In BL drama, fictional, the love story between a dominant character and the dominated one goes through defined stages, more or less, one being the moment (stereotype) we are discussing, in which the dominant “aggresses” until the moment/limit point, when he discovers the reciprocity of feelings (it is a forced act, it is “fit” for aggression but does not meet the conditions of the other aspect) as you described @irmar .
There are BL dramas in which both situations are played and are clearly delimited (I relate to the example given above where the relationships appear: Kinn-Porsche, Vegas-Porsche, Vegas- …).Love takes many forms…
Thank you all.
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The question still remains, though, whether all those forms should actually be called “love.” And no matter how things turn out in the end, the initial forced act can’t be called anything other than r.ape.
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R.pe is never ever love no matter genre (man/woman, woman/woman or man/man). Its strange that some people even think about it as a concept.
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It comes down to poor and lazy writing.
I’m reminded of a film adaptation of a great Irish memoir by Brendan Behan, Borstal Boy.
He was a one-time Irish rebel until he discovered his greater gift was writing. He is also regarded as a closeted homosexual.
For the purposes of the film, though, a male ■■■■ scene is invented. Apparently to make it ‘more relevant’.
Who are these people who think a film needs spicing up with something like this. It’s crazy.
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Congrats, your topic’s title just got out of the censoring. Hope we do not have to see this again.
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Physical abuse-violence, physical aggression according to legal and moral norms (read the related criminal codes of your own country) implies this name.
Now there are 3 aspects that I bring to the discussion regarding BL, g_y Asian dramas:
- the first, with the risk of repetition - strictly in the Asian area - is the concept from which BL drama makers start - respecting certain formulas, a lot of stereotypes, in which physical abuse is interpreted as proof of love/discovery of love, etc. and which is “dressed” by the writer/director in something pleasant.
(assuming I write: there is a large part of the Asian population that does not resonate with the above aspect as “something pleasant”) - the second - the perception of those who do not belong to the Asian culture, physical aggression, more correctly physical trans-aggression is seen as r_ _e.
However, those who know the concept of BL dramas, accept the interpretation of those scenes “as such” and follow these dramas as entertainment.
Assuming I write: My non-hetero acquaintances have seen very few Asian dramas, and their opinions strictly on these scenes were like, I quote: “the first time I saw the scene, we were shocked…” - the third aspect: the emotional impact, the emotional contagion… I don’t comment anymore, @angelight313_941 already described in her comment what effect such a scene has…
As for the emotional contagion, in this public space, I cannot make precise references, I cannot argue, but I can write that it exists.
Types of love: impossible, romantic, unconditional, platonic, self, transcendental, altruistic/selfish, pragmatic, obsessive, possessive, overwhelming, passionate/carnal… In other words, healthy loves and toxic loves.
I am not against BL dramas
In art I also like to discover ”the mold”, ”the mud”… but also what comes out of them, and especially how far the screenwriter/director/artist goes, where he dig, squirms and how much he can convey…
Thank you all.
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One thing to add is the distortion that comes, with Kdramas, especially. Especially, when they draw repeatedly on the same backlog of historical cases.
Now, never wishing to minimise such crimes, those resulting in fatalities, for examples, are very rare, while reported crime rates tell us there isn’t the state of turmoil that is so often portrayed. But television can very often has this amplificatory effect.
Thanks goodness then for the lighter blend of romantic and silly comedies that balance the overall picture.
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Ah, someone must be paying attention. Very good!
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The Asian dramas BL,GL have influenced in Asia not only culturally, sociologically and economically, from my point of view, they have influenced everywhere where they had access. My opinion is that, those dramas which, through the pertinent approach to the real life problems of the people who belong to the LGBTQ+ family, their beneficial role is indisputable, through: knowledge, understanding, acceptance without judgments, prejudices of those who are different, but above all their right to live freely, to build their own happiness like everyone else.
As proof, after watching these dramas, there are comments like: “I knew something about… but now I understand better…”, “I will be more thoughtful/ considerate…”, “in our country, , this topic is taboo…, here I found answers”, “…it made me document myself more”, “I have the impression that until now I lived in another world…”
Many will say: “there are so many sites, forums, information everywhere, there are known things, I have written about…”, no, it is still not enough, there are still real dramas and traumas, the path to understanding and acceptance is made with small-small steps.
For being here, thank you Viki, but above all, thank you to all the volunteers for their work in facilitating access to Asian culture.
PS: I still believe that by taking the good side of things and respecting the principle of the ethics of reciprocity we can build our own happiness.
Thank you all.
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When you wrote this here I was wondering if you are think that your writing is too intellectual for any of us to fully understand you because as far as I know, there is no language barrier here since we are all very capable of communicating and understanding in English.
What I can’t understand and not because I misunderstood you is; How can you see a r a p e in a drama scene and feel that…
daccrismel_71…).Love takes many forms…
R A P E is not love, is a crime punishable by law, but many get away with this crime and it should be a crime to have this scenes constantly playing out in dramas (BL) as something normal in any relationship.
The reason why we have pedophiles raping children and man to man/man raping women in the world is because they are arousing with these kind of scenes these sick perverted sick individuals in the world by so publicly showing and even glorifying this types of scenes.
The scenes I saw was of a *weak/smaller male fighting Very hard to stop the other male from raping him! THERE was a big long struggle; so the fact that the other male was fighting so hard to not let him r a p e him was what made me feel so disgusted with the whole scenario.
These BL dramas are promoting R a p e by making it look like you said here;
daccrismel_71 the dominant “aggresses” until the moment/limit point, when he discovers the reciprocity of feelings (it is a forced act, it is “fit” for aggression but does not meet the conditions of the other aspect) as you described @irmar
Well, I hope you never experience in your life this form of aggression that someone might see as a form of showing you that they * really love you so much and want you so badly that they have to force themselves on you, so you believe in their love for you* ‘‘Will you really call this sick aggression as a form of showing their love for you?.’’
I can guarantee you that you will stop seeing these sick types of scenes in dramas as normal or *another concept/ form of showing love.‘’
daccrismel_71
we should pretend that they don’t exist(?), bury our heads in the sand like ostriches(?) or carry out educational work to prevent such events?
DEFINITELY we can speak out about not having these constant types of scenes in dramas that encourage a r a p e act. We can definitely not encourage this type of behavior in relationships by WATCHING them, and accepting them as normal because although it happens in real life it shouldn’t be promoted in dramas as something totally normal to accept. By viewers accepting and watching this dramas they are supporting the rapist behavior because any force sexual act may arouse many sick individuals, but a normal decent human being should see those scenes as a what it is a r a p e act Which is a crime…
Excerpt NY Penal Law
Under New York Penal Code section 130.35 you will be charged with r a p e in the first degree if you do one of the following: Engage in sexual intercourse with another person by forcible compulsion.
Engage in sexual intercourse with another person who is physically helpless.
**Note: These BL dramas scenes the rapist (aggressor) is always taller and stronger than their victim. That is why I call it R A P E; not another form/concept of love as you trying to convince us to see it as.
Now, you have the right to see it as whatever you want to see it, but when you try to debate and question the way others see these types of scene (that I personally call it an act of r a p e); * is when you crossed a line that you shouldn’t have, especially coming from **a person that feels so intellectual and knowledgeable in so many levels of psychology as you noted in your profile page in your about me
Thanks to @irmar @mirjam_465 @steviepics_788 @maria_lavendula_77 @table122000 for their understanding in this subject.
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Actually, R=Love is a trope in straight Thai dramas. There have been some straight Chinese dramas where R=Love happens as well. Yes, the theme is not as prevalent overall in the straight Asian dramas, but it does exist. Thankfully, Thailand is changing and this theme is slowly going away with the newer productions released in the past few years.
That said, straight Asian dramas are filled with non consent behaviors of varying degrees. We have all seen them: forced kisses, sexual coercion, “kabedon” moves, “wristgrabs,” one person drunk or otherwise incapacitated and kisses/sex scenes happen.
So the non consent behaviors are an issue of Asian dramas in general. It is not limited to BL only.
This article on Sexual Coercion and Boundaries was very informative. I recognized that I had seen many of the behaviors in the Asian dramas, straight and BL, that I had watched.
Sexual Boundaries: How to Spot Sexual Coercion
Well said. Hopefully, we will not see this type of trope in BL dramas in the future.
When I watched KinnPorsche, I felt the producers made a point not to have r*pe scenes in the drama even though there were R scenes in the source novel. That said, the first bed scene between Kinn and Porsche was controversial and opened up dialog about what is a non consent behavior. Porsche was willing and made that clear, but Porsche was also under the influence of drugs at the time. This type of situation happens in real life and is being debated in real life. Here we saw it played out in fiction, and saw how the fictional characters dealt with it. The audience debated along with them. Further complicating things was the fact that both men had started having feelings for each other before the incident happened. There was fallout, but ultimately apology and forgiveness in the end. Some viewers were okay with that and some weren’t.
I will say that the fact they even discussed it and Kinn recognized his behavior was something to apologize for is a step forward. Many BL dramas have similar scenes or even R scenes and everything is okay, no discussion, let alone an apology.
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Yet, real g a y people here in Viki Discussions and in other online spaces have repeatedly and forcefully said that those BL dramas are mainly directed to female audiences fantasizing about two handsome males, and not to the real g a y community, which doesn’t feel represented at all in them, they don’t depict the real situation of their life in any way. They were pretty indignant about it too.
Of course I am not in their shoes so it’s not for me to take a stance, I’m just repeating what I read. What I do know is, when there are tropes, it’s surely not realistic.
An example I CAN talk about is that of “top” and “bottom”, where one is taller and more masculine, the other is of a slighter build and has a softer, more feminine face. This stereotype perpetuated by Asian dramas is so old-fashioned! At least in Western countries, it has all but disappeared, and people take any role they want (or switch, for variety’s sake!), and choose partners of every style and appearance, without them having to look more manly or more womanly. I have worked in show business for a long time, and I have a great many g a y acquaintances who have confirmed this both by their words and by their actions and appearance.
P.S. Come on! They censored the word “el se wh e r e”. What on earth is offensive about this? I had to change my text.
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That r*pe is not the usual trope in K-drama I agree, but there are some dramas touching the topic, such as Angry Mom for example.
I remember years ago there was a weekend-drama
Viewers in the Americas might have access, I don’t see any access for my area.
If you do not want to read any spoilers, don’t read further.
In that drama there was forced sex, and if I say that the actor Park Hae Jin portrayed the character of that guy beautifully, I don’t want anyone to misunderstand, I am in no way welcoming such scenes, but I found his work as an actor outstanding back then. That guy was living a rough life under his father’s pressure and fell in love with a girl, who loved a boy he didn’t get along at all. Those two young men switch after birth to get revenge on the evil father of Park Hae Jin’s character, by nature he is a good guy, to soft for his demanding father and therefor often gets beaten up badly by him, or gets oppressed and driven to do things he doesn’t want to do. So the guy he lost his birth family to is his opponent in love. I don’t recall when he finds out, if prior to this scene or much later. He is devastated and just can’t give up on her, abducting her and trying to talk her into a relationship with him, but she won’t budge. In the end, he resorts to violence. She eventually gets out of the house. After finding out that she is pregnant, she is marrying him, because he suffered, from what he did to her and losing her and his family is urging her. They then move to America, to avoid the talk of the town and giving them the chance to find a way to live, they might have even become happy there, if they could have stayed, since his dad’s influence in daily life there was almost zero. Anyway, it always haunted him that he did that to her, and he always tried to make amends.
I have to say, I tried BL, and it is not my kind of drama. Not every drama might be the same and I tried, too few, to comment about the genre. The few I tried all had that forced act as a “viewer experience” and I wasn’t happy about it is the least I can say, these productions most of the time were sloppy in storytelling, I felt as if the writers themselves didn’t love their own characters, nor the production. It was too flat from the acting as well, one could argue that I was “unlucky” in my choice, but I was missing, something that East of Eden’s character of Park Hae Jin had - and that was - regret. All other points were already mentioned.
So I want to point out that Viki once had the weekend drama Life Is Beautiful, the story of a ■■■ couple, censor again, two homosexual men, okay that works, no BL, a real couple, as real as drama can deliver it 
Okay, even MDL is censored, aigoo, …
I found it to be a beautiful story, as far as I know, the one guy that was open about his sexuality (played by actor Song Chang Eui) was trying to court the other guy who denied his sexuality (played by actor Lee Sang Woo). One can argue, but none of them both looks feminine or acted as if he was a woman, at least not that I remember. I am not sure but think he always got the other one’s consent, if he can do this or that. The portrait of the family reaction and his own, as he little for little, is making steps closer to his coming-out. I think it was well done, as we have to keep in mind this was a weekend drama, the slot for family dramas with age limit 15+ Korean standard.
And I somewhat think it is a loss that Viki has so many BL dramas, but nothing like the one mentioned. You can correct me, if there is, I am behind in everything related to this genre, as well as other current dramas.
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Well this top deviated a bit 
, but back to the main topic. I recommend “Love with Flaws” Love With Flaws | Korea | Drama | Watch with English Subtitles & More ✔️
It was the first K-drama where I saw a gay character. And I was like “What 
”
Yes, I understand you 
. Sometimes when I watch movies or series with my mom that have an interesting plot and are good, they has to put the scene spicing on it, when it is not even necessary 
. Is really awkward. I guess they do it to show that it’s a “mature” movie 
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