I love it too when the sentence reflects the tone.
Now in reality and some feedback from working here and there:
the few editors are hella busy so they put more attention to grammar or how it sounds in English conversational dialogue.
It could turn into a whole debate with editors just for the punctuation LOL (let’s not talk about meaningless sounds).
You can find an alternative so everyone is happy: if you’re CM, you can inform editors that you like the punctuation corresponds to the tone and so they put extra care in that or you can take extra care while informing them. Or if you’re from another team, you can contact the Chief editor and the general editor. It depends on who do what.)
editors don’t really like to come back on their edition for “!” vs “.” (Reasons above and must have more reasons probably).
I don’t say punctuation is not part of editing, just that between “!” vs “.” (this case of punctuation), editors might not want to come back because of their own reasons.
If “!” vs “.” is the remaining point to see: for me, 99.9% of the house foundations are solid.
Ps: feedback for forgotten “?” or “!” or “.”
Normally, editors come back to add it when they are informed (personal exp from editors answers in Cdramas and Kdramas).
@piranna
I don’t say punctuation is not part of editing, just that between “!” vs “.” (this case of punctuation), editors might not want to come back because of their own reasons.
Why would they not edit/fix something that is so important in a sentence?
I don’t know how important is a question/exclamation point is in other language(s) but in Spanish language it’s very important for viewers to see them in the subtitle.
We know the exclamation point is intended to indicate strong feelings, convey emotions as well as indicative of shouting or high voice volume. Although we the hard of hearing can only ‘‘see’’ the angry/surprised look in the actor’s/actress face, when we see the exclamation point it gives ‘‘an emotional feel’’ to the sentence we are reading.
When we see many scenes lacking these essentials punctuations, we wondered all the time: did he/she asked a question? There’s a lot of difference between those two. But if we see the question mark as it should be added by the subbers/editors, there is no longer guessing or questioning in our mind.
It has become very difficult for me when I’m doing the Spanish subs from the english subs in Korean or Japanese dramas. When they don’t add those 2 important punctuations in the sentence since I don’t know the language at all, it makes me feel terrible to leave the subs as is just bc I don’t do guess work, and I just hope the editors take care of that.
If I add a question mark in the Spanish subtitle and later on realize the character in Japanese (for example), was not asking a question, she was affirming something, I can go back and take it out but there’s no need for me to struggle we all that. From original language to English language, if it’s a question, they should have the question marks, and even the exclamation point to give the meaning needed in that sentence.
I don’t see that being done here at viki in many dramas lately. They really need to work on that. EDITORS need to do that, and there shouldn’t be any excuse, as to why it wasn’t done in the first place. If they take the roles as editors: they need to do it 100% not halfway or not at all like they doing so far (I’m not saying it’s happening in EVERY drama either). Just some of the ones I did subs, and some new ones I’m currently watching.
Just to be sure: It’s about English punctuation in English subtitles.
I have understood (maybe incorrectly) that it was about English punctuation when reading your message and answered it in that direction LOL.
I don’t really know the other reasons (probably 1 or 2 reasons in the previous post, but it’s not exhaustive).
I think it’s also important in English: when reading novels written in English, authors put punctuation where French authors would have put it most of the time, except for some cases like below (but again, I’m not a native).
For me, subtitles fill the same role as a script of a theater play: If I were the actor/actress, how would I know when to shout or take a break in my speech without producer guidance? Punctuation and situation.
Question mark (vs other punctuation marks: I have not yet talked about it in the previous post)
I would say it depends on grammar schools editors are following, rules they’ve been taught, context and/or informal/formal writing:
In The Chicago Manual of Style in a forum:
-6.72Indirect question. An indirect question never takes a question mark.
[Relevant example:] How the two could be reconciled was the question on everyone’s mind.
-6.73Indirect one-word question. When a question within a sentence consists of a single word, such as who , when , how , or why , a question mark may be omitted, and the word is sometimes italicized.
[Relevant example:] The question was no longer how but when .
-6.74Courtesy question. A request courteously disguised as a question does not require a question mark.
[Relevant example:] Will the audience please rise.
-Use a question mark at the end of a direct question.
-Do not use a question mark at the end of an indirect question.
-Use an internal question mark to show that something is uncertain.
Depending on context, a sentence may or may not merit a question mark. For example, the rhetorical question “You didn’t break my antique vase,” uttered in an alarmed tone after the speaker has witnessed that very action, would be voiced with downward inflection. The speaker is not asking for a response; he or she is essentially thinking out loud while processing the traumatic incident.
But if the speaker asks someone to confirm that his or her suspicion of the other person’s complicity is unfounded, he or she would ask, with an upward inflection, “You didn’t break my antique vase?”
Question marks should not follow questions that are disguised requests: “Could you please close the door on your way out.” (In writing, such requests are best rendered more concisely: “Please close the door on your way out.”)
Rhetorical questions:
Another example of a rhetorical question is “Isn’t she leaving?” That question means you think the woman is leaving, but you want to confirm. Rhetorical questions like this take a negative form. If you make the “Isn’t she leaving?” question positive, it becomes just a regular question: “Is she leaving?” If you ask “Is she leaving?” you don’t know the answer; whereas with the rhetorical question “Isn’t she leaving?” you are assuming she is leaving.
In dialogue you can sometimes even have a speaker’s rhetorical question end in a period (1).
Rhetorical questions have popped up in pop music. Stevie Wonder, for example, wrote a famous song called “Isn’t She Lovely,” whose lyrics begin:
“Isn’t she lovely,
Isn’t she wonderful,
Isn’t she precious,” (2)
I think the best is to PM editors of the dramas in question while noting down the timing and the subtitle and see their answer.
Sometimes, the punctuation is not edited at first and edited later.
And there’s the human factor: we are humans, subbers and editors, ppl do mistakes accidentally and it’s not abnormal. I don’t think editors do it on purpose and when informed, they take a look when in their appreciation, they recognize it’s necessary to take a look and correct it. It happens they didn’t see it at first because of many factors.
The % of mistakes left shouldn’t be too high in the end. We don’t expect segmenters to segment with 100% correct, but we expect that it’s higher than a limit set (margin of error).
No error would be awesome in any editor’s opinion, just that the time factor and also motivation to re-edit subtitles could be limits.
__
Have you ever tried editing for English subtitles? Even if you don’t know the original language, I still think you can notice things that ppl could have missed. And it would be teamwork, so if you don’t understand a sentence meaning, I’ve seen general editors asking translation editors whether the word/sentence could be changed or not in that way or what it meant.
It’s the advantage of having many editors when you see it like that, you can ask questions and share the knowledge or thoughts. It’s open minding, because we can learn something new when interacting with other editors but also translators.
It’s one of the things I really appreciate in teamwork, it’s this collaboration of many people whose energy is focused on the same project and helping someone. I find it beautiful, even if it requires time and finally the time you invest to look for some grammar points, you use it again in next episodes or next dramas and even for your own culture or future use in life.
Yes, I was talking about those need to be in the English subtitles bc in the Spanish subtitles those play a very important part for the viewers to see. Thank you.
Nope!
I really think it’s worth a try, because you already have knowledge in English and you notice subs.
You seem to care, you see details. I think it’s a good quality for an editor.
Plus, ppl are looking for editors on new and old dramas.
Instead of noticing after when you subtitle in Spanish, why not noticing before while you’re editing English subs? And your edition will be reviewed by CE.
You could be part of some teams, see how editors work, understand why, ask questions and have your answers, get some feedback from other editors and at the same time, some of your points could be added to the drama, learn something new and maybe a little Korean at the same time (and it would help Spanish subbers and also other languages, I think it’s the main point you wanted to convey).
I think for you, it would be an interesting exp to try and you could be the solution or bring the solution for Spanish teams for the pb you have noticed if you’re part of the English editing team. You would intervene directly in the process of editing English subs.
It’s interesting to try new things out of our comfort zone to know whether you appreciate it or no; or just to know how it is.
Plus, being in the same boat, it would be more about concerting and talking about grammar points or vocabulary points.
So yeah, why not going in that direction instead? Have you ever wanted to try?
(After, have to see which drama you could intervene, not something too hard maybe so you don’t feel demotivated as an editor)
Thanks for the compliment but sadly I can’t bc of the many Doctor’s appointments I have now (just came from one). I have weekly treatment at chemo clinic on Fridays for my Lupus, and on thursday I have to see another specialist also.
I’m a very responsible mature woman that don’t like to leave things half way done like I have seen some ppl do here at viki. They edit the first 2 episodes and it looks all nice and dandy, and they move to the other dramas without a care in the world.
I was able to do volunteer work in a project for more than a year and I was able to finish that one just bc no viewers were watching the drama, and I was able to go in whenever I had the time (or didn’t feel sick).
I wish I had the good health and the time to be hours editing like some do in here (I know a few that are very dedicated in their editing work also). The same way there are some that do an half *** job, we have dedicated editors who give their 110%.
My utmost appreciation and admiration for their dedication to their volunteer work. Although I say ‘‘if they pay me I would do it’’ I’m really being sarcastic bc one, I know they won’t pay me but the main important one for me is, that it’s impossible for me to do it.
If someone needs my help in small editing stuff I think I can do it but it has to be very flexible when it comes to time and days I would be able to do it. So hit me up anyone. and maybe I can work something out.
Sad to hear you’re sick and had to go through chemo. Hope you keep your spirits up, don’t give up!
If it gives you some peace of mind or joy to edit, why not? Up to you!
If you already feel tired because of chemo, maybe better to rest, following your doctor’s advice.
Don’t forget to take some time with your family. I feel they’re really important in such moments.
And also, be kind with you.
Even if your mind could be disturbed by some things on Viki, at the end of the day, I hope you could be indulgent with yourself and your surroundings (in the meaning of be easy on you and your surroundings), brush this frustration off and don’t forget to enjoy your time here For me, I enjoy your solidarity with us like with Viki machine translations previously.
Hope you can still come by despite the treatment, I’m so used to see you here that Viki without you would not be the same. You have your own style and personality, somewhat funny and unique.
I calmed down lately bc the Lupus got the better of me but I have my days when I let the little devil get out of me bc I never said I was a saint.lol After I wrote to you I was completely knocked out and rested well, thanks. What I hate about this disease is how tired I always feel, so I save most of my energy to clean the house and cook for my kids and go to my many Doctor’s appointments of course.
I’m glad things worked out for the French teams but no such luck with me and the Spanish teams that I see so many ‘‘terrible’’ I know are ‘‘bot’’ translations, and when I communicate with certain moderators they are not too receptive with me. Yesterday, they gave a "go’’ and I went TWICE for 2 episodes, and it was locked they also deleted the part I requested and I believe this spanish moderator did it bc I told her the English translation was bad. and now all of a sudden I’m being ignored/cast out. Who can work in situations like that?
But I’m making this public bc I’m sick of the ill treatment I get from certain individuals here:
I’m not going to mention names since I no longer know who is who in here since they keep changing to new names. I send this message to a moderator and I think I was polite enough in my writings. Now all of a sudden I was not able to work in the drama and I know that was no ''BUG" bc when I try to give any kind of input all of a sudden I’m outcasted.
(I had asked something in another message to this moderator about a bad translation in the previous episode in that same drama. I refused to translate that subtitle in Spanish bc I knew the English sub was very wrong and it turned out, I was right).
[Don’t worry I know you’re busy. The truth is the English (Trans) in this drama in some parts is really difficult, I mean very hard to understand. I feel the sentence are ‘‘backwards’’ and it takes me longer than usual (to translate)]
No te preocupes sé que estás ocupada. La verdad que el
inglés en este drama está en algunas partes un poco difícil mejor dicho, bien difícil de entender. Siento que están al revés las oraciones y por eso me tardo más de lo usual.
It seems the system (bot) wants me to do the sentence as is although it’s wrong bc when I correct them it ‘‘kicks me out’’ and deletes the subs I wrote.
Al parecer el sistema quiere que haga la oración igual aunque esté mal hecha, porque cuando la corrijo me ‘‘bota’’ y me borra el sub que hice.
For example this one:
Por ejemplo este:
Shut your god***m mouth! (This is the English subtitle they had and I never knew Koreans cursed G-D I hate to see this in subs it hurts my heart).
Characters left: 224
Suggestion: ¡Cierra la boca de tu Dios! (Close the mouth of your God!/what the suggestion had bc of the asterisk in place the ‘‘bot’’ don’t recognize the words/ contraction either as I mentioned before and gives a wrong translation).
Yo escribí: ¡Cierre su maldita boca! (I wrote in Spanish Close your damn mouth! bc no way in the world, I would translate that to me so sinful word in Spanish).
Se borró y lo puse de nuevo. Yo creo que el sistema quiera controlar lo que uno escribe pero si está bien no deben tocarlos. No lo pude revisar espero estén bien.
[It got deleted and i added again. I think the system wants to control what we write but if they are right, they shouldn’t be touched. I couldn’t check it I hope they are ok]
.
In defense of the moderator she ALWAYS tells us subbers to check and make sure suggestion is right/correct ( BUT in this drama since the English translation was already wrong, in some parts, the Spanish suggested translation was much worse).
The dominoes effect of bad translators that create this mess and continues going on in here. As you can see hard as I try, they don’t work well with me, and I don’t understand why. HELP CENTER is dead to me since I know I get nowhere bc unlike you, that had so much support when you asked for it in regards to the french translation, I have NO ONE on my side within the Spanish teams. Why? That’s the question I know I’ll never get answered here.
I hope you see that I have tried to do my part, and right now i have too much in my plate to add the aggravation of dealing with these type of unfair situations. I’m glad you gave me the chance to express what’s really going on with the spanish teams, and I really think is time for me to kiss viki goodbye as a subber. I will miss you all guys bc it helped me to keep my mind a bit busy. It was a pleasure knowing all of you through here bc I may have seen/feel a lot of hypocrisy, but I also felt the caring and love your spirit projected to me through your writings. Thank you to you and each and everyone of you that sincerely cared here for me. Many blessings to all, love me or not.
Compared to Viki matters, bot, etc., your health is more important than that so take care of yourself first.
Allow yourself some peace of mind, that is on the web or somewhere else, because it will benefit for your health. Think of yourself first, you’re sick.
It’s thanks to everyone’s support. People who didn’t go on strike defended the cause, be it volunteers or viewers, by signing the petitions, suggestions, and participating in the call.
The cause was more global than just French. We could see it in suggestions against hoarders in all languages for ex and in participants of the call (Italian, Greek, American, Spanish, French): we talked like a community from the world on Viki, not making differences in countries.
I’ve heard about bot translations used by some Spanish teams.
French moderators I know don’t allow us to use the bot translation without checking because it can’t be used like that (and where’s the fun?). So if among Spanish moderators, they allow it without checking, it’s already a consequent difference between French and Spanish teams in regards of the bot and that could explain why against bot use, French teams could unite, not because it’s X or me, I think.
Also, the situation was quite different: some active teams were in the middle of subbing it and got informed for the same day for things that implied sth, how the reaction could be positive?
Maybe, it would have been different if they did the same for Spanish in these conditions, the Spanish teams could have been able to unite too. Who knows? And again, the title is called Machine Translation from Viki (I didn’t add “French”).
–
I’m on phone and quoting is difficult on mobile phone version of Viki forum. I would have liked to continue to quote the correct paragraphs and put my answers below, but will do.
For your locking pb yesterday: best is to see it first with the Spanish moderator to know exactly what happened and clear the situation and doubts.
If you have been locked, all other Spanish subbers too, no? How any Spanish subber can translate?
For English subtitles you don’t understand the structure or the meaning or anything related to it: PM or @ an editor to tell that you need help to understand and subtitle in Spanish X subtitle with the timing and subtitle. Contact the correct editor (if it’s about structure: CE / if it’s about meaning: TE and CE).
I’ve seen moderators, new subbers, myself doing that and our editors answer maybe later, but they answer and normally you get the answer to be able to translate.
Editors are really important for all languages too to understand, it could be clear for someone, but not for everyone or they could have missed sth and while subbing, the subber happened to notice it (most of the time, the first ones to notice = subbers)?
Don’t be afraid to ask something to editors when you don’t understand or to clear your doubts instead of kneading your brain. It’s quick and effective.
For ex:
I have asked that if ppl have some questions or see mistakes in English subs that could have been missed, they feel free to contact us so we could take a look. I’ve sent it too to a Korean subber a few days ago because I wanted to convey that if she needed help to understand sth, she could ask without being afraid or feeling alone in that matter.
When you open dialogue and invite people to do that, it’s already a step for better communication. They know they can ask and can count on us.
Normally, the Korean subber has never asked me anything about the subs we had.
When I sent her this message just a few days ago, immediately, she sent me this yesterday:
– subber msg:
Hello piranna,
I finished the Korean subtitles for Ep4,5,7 on …
And I have a Question for EP6.
25.44 : X said “…”
And Y answer: “…”
I understand the sentences separately, but I don’t get that conversation. Do you have the Chinese script?
–
I saw the subs, understood it in my own interpretation, asked a TE to help this subber because I don’t want to say something wrong and it’s better to have confirmation from a native.
The TE answered me not even a few hours later with a clear explanation.
–TE answer:
“Hi Pi!
I’m glad to help if I can!
The sentence in ep 6…
And that’s why Y replies “…”
Hope this helps! Feel free to let me know if there are more questions.”
–
And this is the explanation the subber needs to subtitle in Korean.
–
The question was: precise, clear, timing, subtitle, the problem she met.
The answer: same.
We just look to solve the problem she met to help her subtitle.
She just looked to understand the subtitle.
Nothing out of subject, objective, no more, no less.
5 lines max.
Effective communication that solved quickly the pb she met between the TE and the subber.
I think if you follow this model:
Timing
Subtitle
I don’t understand how to subtitle it in my language in 1 sentence
Normally, you get the answer you seek for.
You’re not alone for the Spanish side, believe me.
While the channel was LOCKED in Spanish for me, other subbers started and finished all 3 parts in the 2 episodes. It was intentional and I have no doubts about it, so I won’t waste my time asking that moderator. anything bc she will just lie. I do hope she realizes that in this life, ‘‘what goes around comes around.’’ One day it will be her turn.
If it was intentional, you would see it if it happens again by asking and seeing what happens next.
–
Could ask:
“I wanted to continue subtitling the drama in Spanish but couldn’t subtitle part X because it was locked on my side, but other subbers could subtitle their own part.”
Join a complete screenshot of the part with the url to show it was locked for you to show you really have this pb.
“I want to continue subtitling this drama, could you help me?”
–
Depending on her answer:
you’re still in the team, you continue to sub and you have no more locking pb. End of the trouble.
your situation happens again: there is sth. See it with the moderator (again) and CM. The CM could contact the moderator to know about the situation.
If there’s really sth not solvable: Viki at the end with evidence (=screens).
–
For a moderator to react this way towards her subber, there must be sth.
There is no legit reason to lock a subber out if a subtitler:
-Subtitles correctly
-Follows guidelines, vocab
-Doesn’t try to create intentionally troubles within the team or the drama just to create troubles or make it harder for the moderator or the team for X personal reason against someone.
I would add:
-Tries to understand the problematic sub by asking the correct editors and why not moderator (so the mod could ask editors). The content only.
Because it shows you’re only interested in subtitling correctly and you try to do so.
(I don’t know if I forgot sth, it is sth general that I think is basis)
If the edition is really problematic: recurrent subs you don’t understand, many subbers are in the same situation: contact CM to inform that subbers and not you only have difficulties with timing, subtitles.
The CM can contact editors.
I am a volunteer that subtitles in Lithuania, that is not a popular language on Viki, and if it would be taken away as well as french, Viki wouldn’t even care. I respect all the volunteers on Viki, our languages shouldn’t be taken away from us, our voice shouldn’t be silencend! There are plenty volunteers that enjoy translating subtitles for FREE, without anything in return. So why take that away Viki?
I hope we can meet again somewhere! Remember, as I told you before, calm down and breathe, your health is more important than anything here.
I think there’ll be some changes in some Spanish teams soon (not too soon, but soon :P). You know, I’ve not seen a lot of bot translations when I’m editing, there’s still some subbers using them but not as before. The issue with the French team helped a lot, some moderators are writing in their messages that we shouldn’t use those translations and I think they are paying more attention to that. So… This will take some time, but I really think and hope that “changes are coming”
By the way, I know there are “moderadoras de moderadoras” (I don’t know how to say it in English), but we have had so many good experiences with others, so remember them, and don’t let those “moderadoras” ruin your day.
Don’t be away for to long, come to say “hi” someday, OK?
You gave me great news bc some ppl. don’t belong here doing a job where they ‘‘take over’’ and treat others so unfairly. It was a pleasure knowing you through here. Wish you the best and thank you for your support and kind words.
For me, I enjoy your solidarity with us like with Viki machine translations previously.