Viki

Moderators who hoard channels


#190

Na ja, man muss Fragen beantworten, Begriffe festlegen etc. Wenn man das nun alles auf den Editor auslagert, macht man als Moderator nichts mehr außer Leute suchen und einteilen. Mir ist bewusst, dass einige an so etwas zögernd herantreten, aber im Grunde ist das meines Erachtens den Titel kaum wert.

Das machen einige sicherlich, ich aber in der Regel z.B. nicht. Ich klicke mich durch die Parts, um wichtige Begriffe, Charaktere und Anreden herauszufiltern. Anfangs dauert es länger, später kann das recht schnell gehen. Es gibt Leute, die weder das eine noch das andere machen. Das sind dann auch Moderatoren, allerdings eher vom Titel her. Ebenso gibt es Moderatoren, die merkwürdige Vorgaben machen, weil ihnen die Deutschkenntnisse fehlen oder die gar keine Vorgaben machen und alles auf ihre Subber übertragen. Meiner persönlichen Ansicht ist das den Titel dann jedoch eigentlich nicht wert.

Jetzt ist es natürlich so, dass es kaum Vorgaben für Moderatoren gibt und diejenigen sich somit im Rahmen der Richtlinien bewegen. Durchaus. Das macht Limits jedoch erst recht absurd. Der Aufwand geht dann gen 0 und man hat einen Fancy Titel.


#191

Begriffe, Anreden etc. legt schon noch der Mod fest, eventuell nach kurzer Rücksprache mit dem Editor. Das hat ja auch alles nichts mit Rechtschreibung, Grammatik, Ausdruck/Stilfragen (!) und Zeichensetzung zu tun.


#192

Adäquate Begriffe zu finden hat etwas damit zu tun, dass man einen entsprechenden Wortschatz + Sprachgefühl hat. Ohne den ist das meiner Erfahrung nach kaum möglich vernünftige Begriffe zu finden. Das führt dann eher zu ominösen Vorgaben à la “Du musst Director statt Direktor schreiben, um das vom Zirkusdirektor zu unterscheiden”. Oder die Absenz von Bindestrichen bei Übersetzungen. :woman_shrugging:

Für Rechtschreibung und Grammatik gibt es Add-ons, die viel auffangen. Viele können subben, auch wenn ich jemandem ohne C1+ eher davon abraten würde Eng - Deu zu übersetzen (Deu - Eng ist wieder etwas Anderes). Umso weniger können editieren oder moderieren. Ich meld mich ja auch nicht als Eng - Kor Subtitler, wenn ich nur “sarang yo” sagen kann. :woman_shrugging:


#193

Ich seh das ganz aus der Position eines Editors. Ich muss auch höchstens mit einem halben Auge auf die englischen Subs schauen. Wenn man die Handlung erfasst, dann fällt ganz von allein auf, wenn da inhaltlich Blödsinn steht.
Als Subber hoffe ich manchmal, dass, abgesehen von eventuellen inhaltlichen Missverständnissen, keiner meiner Subs verschlimmbessert wird. Aber eigentlich juckt es mich auch wieder nicht, weil der eine Part ja dann auch irgendwie im Großen und Ganzen untergeht.

Mit einem Wort, ich bin voll pro separate Editorrolle, aber wer sich als Mod beides zutraut und dann auch wirklich macht, ist auch okay.


#194

I don’t mind it if the editor is separated from the moderator in general, or if someone else does the editing or shares it (e.g. if the moderator doesn’t want to or someone else might be even better or there’s no time, whatever). I just have the opinion that the moderator should be able to edit, because they may not meet the requirements for a moderator otherwise (assisting the team, defining terms etc. which require very good knowledge of their respective language). :blush:


#195

Nowadays I to often look who are the editors in the English Team.
When I see 2 to 4 people in there I often pick a fight with myself if I should apply somewhere as Mod or not


#196

Moderator vs Editor debate significantly varies among language communities with different sizes.

As for things concerning English teams:
▸I can only say there are some teams which take a significant amount of time for releasing episodes.
▸I don’t mind post-release changes; they’re often typos or mistakes in names which I correct on my own when subtitling in my language.
▸Missing OSTs? I can’t blame anyone if the singer is intending to create Yanny vs Lauren 2.0.
▸This is a real life example:

  • On a show where I am an OL moderator, the English team has held back last 2 episodes for 2 months, the episodes are barely 20 minutes long. There is nothing that can justify pushing back a merely 200 segments long episode for 2 months. English subbers last worked on the episodes on Oct 26, 2021. What date is it today? 9 Dec, no way the editors are taking 44 days to edit 200 subtitles.

▸Having these experiences, I’ve decided to only work on shows after checking who the CE is. If the CE is good enough to answer my questions, I won’t hesitate to join that team. If the CE regularly ignores OL cries, no matter the reason, I’ll just pass the drama.


Other Language Moderator which is solely based on my experience at Viki and only revolves around my language (can be further taken as a common thing in small language communities):
▸Moderators need to be checked on their skills. I see moderators in my language who can’t even tell if “chair” is a masculine noun or feminine noun.
▸I agree with @xylune on this, moderators must have the skills to edit.
▸If a moderator can’t differentiate between basic things, basic tones, basic terms in the concerned language, then what’s the use in being a moderator? I can become a Spanish moderator, too. I’ll see if the subbers spell “Hola” correctly or not.
▸In my initial projects, I worked with a moderator who barely decided anything on the show. Just assign parts, ask the editor to edit and that’s it. This isn’t what I’d expect a moderator to do. Where’s the “decide terminologies, give feedback, communicate with editors” thing? Vanished into thin air…
▸On the other hand, I am working with a moderator who actively communicates with the team. They haven’t limited their work only to ask subbers to subtitle or ask editors to edit; they take and give feedback really often.
▸One more thing I’ll expect from a moderator is checking on the team. You can’t just blindly assume everyone who contacts you for subtitling has a Master’s degree in the language. If you don’t edit, or don’t help in deciding stuff, then you’re being cruel to the editor, who’ll have to directly deal with the mess the subbers create.


In smaller communities, often, it is the moderator who also takes on the role of an editor. I always work as an editor in my shows, but I don't add myself as an editor. The only reason is– it uselessly clutters my Project Contribution page. I can't speak for anybody else, but the role of Moderator vs Editor is **very** clear to me. In order to assign myself the position of an editor, I need to have enough confidence in my skills. If I know I can't even spell something correctly, I'll have this fear of being humiliated, and I'd rather stay underground.
Someone mentioned above, a team of trusted volunteers to monitor the quality... I am very well aware that this idea seems to be very good (theoretically) but practically, this would just divide the community. I'd rather improve this one to an entrance test, just like there's a sandbox for segmenters to practice, there could be a sandbox for subtitlers to translate. They can take the test at entry time, the people who were (hypothetically) decided by Viki for quality control can anonymously check their skills, if they pass, they're free to translate. If not, they can retake the test (on another random video) or reconsider subtitling.

As for how many projects should be allowed for a moderator, I’ll give my vote to these ideas:
▸Number of hours.
▸The traffic light system. It can be further improved by the CM and moderator discussing their personal deadlines, the CM can add a deadline (which would be hidden from everyone except the concerned moderator, CM, and staff) and work accordingly. In case of emergencies, deadlines could be shifted further.
▸Previous record of the moderator. If the moderator is known for completing dramas on time, then the CM can decide to add them as moderator or not.


#197

Excuse me? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#198

This is a problem of permissions given to each role in a team (to the role of Segmenter, Moderator, Editor, etc.).

I’m aware of this issue. Same issue applies for page designers. It is a work-around that team must use to get the job done. The issue should be fixed by Viki, by creating necessary permissions for existing roles, as well as creating new roles (Chief Segmenter, Page Designer etc.). You can have the exact same set of permissions for two, three different roles.

This issue should not be taken as an excuse to leave the status quo and not change rules for the functional (actual) Moderators.


#199

I hope to discuss something based on the whole sentence, since it’s misleading like that. Usually the OL edit takes place after subtitling, so it could be scheduled after the (English) final edit while the subbing could take place after TE or GE (speaking hypothetically) if there are huge delays. In fact, FE would’ve been the correct term above, so maybe the “CE” has been misleading.
However, it’s by no means appropriate to wait for 3-8 weeks+ for one episode. The best solution would be the one that this situation never occurs or the CE/CM finds someone to help out or even a replacement if necessary - or try to find additional editors. Maybe some subbers or OL moderators would overlook mistakes and just accept what they receive from the English team, but seeing how many people actually DO report mistakes etc. if they’re encouraged to - they might as well be underestimated.

There are teams that practice something like this from the beginning - while I don’t think it works perfectly, it still won’t ruin the subs. However, it requires an active community and the will to correct possible mistakes.


#200

I’ve worked on a few dramas as an editor, so maybe my experience is different. However, I’ve noticed that most of the time delays are caused by the TEs or subbers. The English Editors - both GEs and CEs finish their work pretty fast. I’m not blaming the TEs here - the problem is that there are very less volunteers who know both the original language and English. Most TEs I’ve worked with have a lot of projects lined up, so unpopular, long dramas take the back seat.


#201

For that reason, some longer dramas removed the TE after some time and proceeded without them. I do have some doubts about it since there are indeed more mistakes if one of the 3 edits is missing, but it’s not mandatory by the rules on the other hand and if you wait for 3 weeks for 1/55 episodes you’re insane one day… maybe. :woman_shrugging:


#202

The more I read all the comments, the more I think it would be impractical and unfair to put time limits to OL mods globally on Viki. Within a team, sure, if both the CM and the Mod agree beforehand. As many have already pointed out, suggestion of calculating average time per week has too many variables - mostly large variation in available time per contributor and large variation in time necessary to finish an episode from one contributor to the next - to be successfully put into practice.

I still think that the only real and simple solution to hoarding is limiting the number of “library titles” per Mod.

a-hauth_238 cleverly suggested

So, what if Viki implemented a possibility for CMs to mark their project “Library title” after the release of the final episode? That way the system could also automatically (!) calculate how many unfinished library titles a Mod has.

I would also like to make one important point.

Any changes Viki makes now should not be applied retrogradely. I’m sure there are some lawyers here who can confirm this - a new law should not be applied retrogradely if it’s at the expense of an individual (who by definition is in a more vulnerable state than the system imposing the law).

My German is rusty, but…

What then in your opinion would a Mod do if not translate? Organisation, recruitment of subbers and comment reporting are very, very small parts of the Mod’s job. If that were to be the only roles of a Mod, then there wouldn’t be any need for limiting the projects for them, would there? Because the rest of the team would do all the heavy lifting, the real work.

Viki’s guidelines say Mod has the responsibility to finish a project. That means, if push comes to shove, they have to roll their sleeves and do the proverbial grunt work themselves.

I also told myself I will now ask the CM who their CEs are before I ask for the Mod position.


#203

Hi! I would like to ask Viki’s staff what is the purpose of this of site. It’s not for those viewers who are waiting to watch the dramas translated in their native language? The viewers want to see all the series and movies translated. They don’t care who is Moderator and how many projects has X or Y moderator. We aren’t volunteers for our own egoism, but for those viewers. So, I guess Viki should find a solution for those moderators who have not translated projects and get new ones (some of them were rewarded by Viki with the position of CM as well, nice approach :joy:). I translate a lot on Viki, so I find it weird to be sanctioned by Viki because I have many projects where I really work on time. Some time ago I volunteered to translate an old abandoned project and Viki’s answer was that I have many projects. Good, but nobody translated it and has no licence for my region now. The viewers didn’t have a chance to watch it, although there were some volunteers who wanted to translate it. I’ll say it again: we translate for them and not for us, the volunteers (we can watch them in English :sweat_smile:). Let’s say I moderate 5 dramas where there is an episode released after one month or even two months. During this period of waiting I shall not moderate, although is not my fault?


#204

Yes, as I wrote, an OML can/should also be good at English, which means they should also translate freehand as much as possible. But that doesn’t mean they have to be super good in their original language. If they agree to join hands with a editor aka proofreader, then they can complement each other well and and share in the work.


#205

Are Training Channels (for example for the NSSA) also counted in the total of channels you are allowed to have? :thinking:


#206

I think time frames adjust to the time and contribution amount someone is willing to give. Project limits don’t. In mediocre language communities, you can - theoretically - take care of 10+ projects at the same time. In huge language communities, there’s a competition issue (many people want one project) and in small communities, most people won’t be able to handle many projects at once unless they’re investing a huge amount of time. Furthermore, some projects are delayed by the English team. If there’s no solution for this there’s no point in my opinion to put chains on OL moderators.
Another point would be the complexity of a system. If the system is rather complicated and would have to implemented, it’s more likely to be refused in the first place. While we are talking about library projects, the term has never been defined in the first place.
What’s with older series where all episodes are released at once? When do projects stop being on air?

You can do that in a small community or in case of unpopular projects. But when I apply for a recent drama, I usually have to decide whether I apply now or never.
Of course, when a very slow Editor becomes CM, I can guess that they’ll edit their project and that it may take a while (or in case they’re added directly). For that reason, one of the recent bigger projects may not have been considered by some languages yet.

In my opinion, “Quality Assurance” can’t be outsourced. Moderator is in higher position that the Editor because they know both languages very well, they know how it works, they can judge their team’s contributors to some extent. Why become a Moderator otherwise?


#207

So your suggestion would be:

  1. English subbing (unless presubbed), TE, GE.
  2. OL subbing
  3. English CE
  4. OL editing

That would still give the editors/moderators of Other Languages extra work, though, since their subbers would translate a more raw version. :thinking:

Actually, the best solution would be good communication from the start. CMs should tell their expectations before the start of the show and unsatisfied OL mods should address the right person (and at least initially, ONLY that person) instead of complaining to everyone but this person.
There can be several TEs or GEs in a team, but the CE is responsible for consistency and that’s hard to maintain if there is more than one, especially if they have completely different editing styles.

TEs are essential for a good translation. If you really need to skip an editor, skip the GE. That would of course mean more work for the CE, but it’s an option. No TE, however, means there will be mistakes in the subtitles. Sometimes they are only small, in other cases they are huge, but they will always be there, especially in presubbed shows.
If there is no volunteer TE available, Viki Staff might in some cases be able to help out.


#208

I’m referring to solving huge delays. I have extra work finding new people and adjusting my schedule if there’s a delay of 2 months for a short dorama. I’d rather edit 2 more sentences. Likewise, I am rather sure that most mediocre and bigger communities would rather handle these projects in this way. If all editors work in a timely manner, there’s no point to even discuss anything.

If the right person leaves a conversation or nothing changes after talking to them, I assume that they are not interested in a solution or don’t feel the need to change anything. Especially not, if they complain publically about private inquiries by accident. The Channel Manager’s job is to ensure that everything runs smoothly.
Furthermore, I do think that the Editor has a responsibility to be aware of how much they can manage in an appropriate timeframe. I can apply to 20 projects as well and probably many people wouldn’t expect me to do xx episodes per week, however, I would be very disappointed, if I behaved like that. Just like the CM or the English team everyone has a certain responsibility towards everyone involved in a project. A CM has to consider everyone’s interest, an Editor has to make sure that the audiences are satisfied and that the OL mods can actually proceed as soon as possible without being sloppy, the OL moderator has to check if everything’s correct, manage their team and provide a good translation in a timely manner as well. I don’t think that responsibility is something that can be shifted to one person only. Everything has to know their limits and face them honestly. Everyone can do a mistake here at first. When I accepted too many projects to translate, I figured I’m at my limit and I should reduce them. It’s that simple.
New CMs or overly friendly CMs may not dare to push for a result. You can blame them, but I simply wouldn’t try to exploit them instead.


#209

Viki has learned its lesson and nowadays they avoid releasing 68 untranslated-to-English episodes of an old series all at once.

It’s not so much if the project is on-air or not. It is whether the English is completed for all episodes and the project is released to OLs (aka library title).

I agree.