Should we start adding line breaks for viewing comfort again?

[worthyromance]

I never edit to fit the break. That defeats the purpose of editing. If the timing fits what is already subbed, Viki’s guideline is to make minimal changes. If we are going to ask all our editors to become slaves to breaks, I think it’s unconscionable.

The sub fit the timing, was correct English, and had the punchline or “carrot” reward at the end for emotional impact.

@bozoli

If the briefing concludes successfully, all the staff
members here can be promoted to managers.

None of my three devices do that without a break. They show a longer first line then a shorter line for the second part of the sentence. They also don’t hide words, but I use a little larger font on a shadow background. I do that because the actors may wear white or the scene may contain a lot of white. The white subs disappear on such a background so when I first joined Viki, I chose that option. My devices always display Viki subs like that for me when viewing.

[ilikedeadclowns]

Breaks don’t matter with viki. I’d leave it as a single line. Outside of viki is another matter. “Concludes successfully” takes up too much space if you’re looking at CPS, which isn’t a used metric on viki.

@worthyromance

there’s no reasonable way to divide this evenly.

@irmar

That sentence is impossible to break in a reasonable manner that would result in only two lines.

My post was a response to these comments. There wasn’t a way to divide the sentence roughly evenly as is.

[bozoli]

@worthyromance

None of my three devices do that without a break.

The mobile application does it like that. It has nothing to do with how long the top line is. It just fills out the entire screen width and, when it lacks further space, puts the rest of the sentence in the next row. The mobile app uses the automatic break. However it also uses our breaks < br >. If both are used in the same sub, the situation can turn quite ridiculous:

If the briefing concludes successfully, all the staff
members here < br >
can be promoted to managers.

So I would advise Viki to delete any manual breaks before rendering the subs on the mobile app.

As for the TV, the worst case of a cut out subtitle I saw on my LG was when the sentence started with the subject “I” and that subject was missing. The last letter and full stop of the sentence were also missing, but those are not quite as disorienting as a missing subject. I think there is something wrong with Viki’s video frame and how it fits some TVs.

[david33]

I’m new to Viki and honestly this is one of the worst streaming platform I used in the past 10 years or so. I’m an official translator for Ntflix, D+, HBO Max etc. All of them would k*ll me if I go above 30 CPS and don’t use line breaks. Anyone who says this is a good way what VIKI is doing, they never worked as a real subber. Who cares about phones? I mean, who the heck is watching shows on a phone? Also, if the other streaming platforms can do this properly, then Viki should do it too. They just don’t want it. If you want to translate a show or a movie, and you’re really good at it, and you’re caring about quality over quantity, you would never release a sub that’s not perfect! Also, if Viki doesn’t want to add line breaks at least they should give the option to people, so we can edit the subs in the subtitle setting menu. This platform lacks the most basic functions.

Edit: LOL! We can’t even mention other stream platforms because Viki is censoring their names? That’s a new low.

[base_b_149]

Hi, I’ve worked a lot as amateur translator in other communities in the past and yeah, it was quite shocking that here CPS or line lenght don’t matter. I was used to work under 26 CPS and max 90 characters in a sub (45+45). Here is very easy peasy

[irmar]

@david33

All of them would k*ll me if I go above 30 CPS

Studies done in later years show that those limits cater for people totally unused to reading subs and in reality reading speed for most people is much higher than that. There is a thread here on this, you might want to have a look after this. How quickly can a viewer read subtitles?
And especially Viki viewers are even more used to subtitles, because Viki specializes in Asian drama and you don’t find Asian dramas dubbed in English (or if you do, it’s a very rare and recent phenomenon).
As a professional translator of more than 4 decades, I can tell you one basic rule: adapt to your intended audience. In the same way as a scientist won’t write in the same way for a scientific journal and for a divulgative magazine article intended for the general public (e.g. “Focus” or “Time” or “Nature”).
There is a very specialized sort of audience here on Viki - and newcomers very quickly adapt. For instance the use of Korean (or Chinese or Japanese) appellatives instead of just using people’s names. We wouldn’t do that in subs created for other platforms, but here it is the norm, we feel that they give information on hierarchy and relationships. Also some expressions, interjections, food names etc. left untranslated, because we all know what they mean.
And yes, many people watch shows on a phone. Especially on long commutes to work or school - people who first are bored and secondly are too eager to know what happened last night on their favourite show. I used to scoff too, because my eyesight is not that great and a phone screen is too small. This until I had to spend months in a hospital. My phone was my saviour then (I have unlimited data, he he).

Another thread that you might be interested in reading is this one. I’m pointing it out since you are new here and it’s an old one, so you wouldn’t find it easily:

Comparison between NX and Viki subs

I wanted to know the difference between Viki subs and NX subs for the same drama and took an example. For ex, ep 01 of Queen for 7 days: VIKI compared to NETFLIX Number of subtitle lines: -91 lines Subtitle length - maximum: +70 chars Subtitle length - average: +13 chars Subtitle, number of lines - average: = Single line length - minimum: = Single line length - maximum: +48 chars Single line length - average: +21 chars Duration - minimum: +0,06 s Duration - maximum: …

[david33]

I don’t want to be rude or anything like that, but I couldn’t care less about studies. Studies made by people who don’t know anything about this. Also, I don’t like generalization. You can’t make a study based on random people’s opinion because literally everyone is different. I can read fast, well most of the time if I’m not tired. Also, it’s not about how fast a viewer can read, it’s about quality. A long line looks bad, to say the least. Sure, a lot of people like this way, or they just ignored it and used to it, BUT the fact that VIKI doesn’t even want to give an option to everyone says a lot about them. It’s not like giving an option is a hard thing to do. It wouldn’t cost them anything, and writing a code like that for the sub settings would take like a week or so. I know because I worked with devs a lot as a graphic designer.

NX has a lot of bad subs too. Most of the time it happens because they don’t use great QC or a show is translated by more than 1 person or the one who’s doing the job doesn’t know anything about the show or the culture. I haven’t watched a lot of shows on VIKI yet, especially in English, but I can see the same pattern here too where the translator like to translate word to word when it’s totally unnecessary. Most of the time this is the reason the lines are too long. But like I said, all I (we) need is an option for breaking the lines manually in the subtitle settings.

My biggest problem with VIKI is that basically everyone can be a translator, editor, QC etc. This is a terrible idea. Sure, this makes the job faster, especially because one episode can be translated by even 10 people, but overall it’s quantity over quality. And what I’ve seen so far there’s a couple of people here whom I wouldn’t hire as a QC especially as a translator. But to be fair, this is more about other languages, not English. Most English subs are good, but the rest requires a real QC and a translator. What I would do is hire those whom are really good at their job, pay them because right now they’re making subs for free, and honestly, who’s going to make you a quality sub for free? Also, viewers should rate subs too! That’s the most important thing.

I’m pretty sure VIKI never going to make these changes because most of their subbers are doing the job for free, so they can save a lot of money.

[irmar]

@david33

VIKI doesn’t even want to give an option to everyone

What do you mean? Of course there is this option. You can easily add breaks by using the CTRL+B shortcut or typing < br > (I put extra spaces otherwise you wouldn’t be able to see it). Just as we add breaks for dialogue and notes, you can add breaks to a single sentence if you like. It doesn’t need any extra settings. In fact, a lot of Other Language teams have the habit of adding them.
And yes your tone is I wouldn’t say rude, but a bit aggressive.
Of course not all subbers are good. As an editor, I know that better than everyone. But in the last few months Viki changed things: they chose to pre-sub most new shows by paid people and no, they haven’t been fishing in the volunteer pool. How do I know? You can see that the style of those paid subbers is different, they don’t seem to be Viki regulars. There are some very very good volunteer subbers and editors here, but no, they had to bring people from outside.
Viewers rate subs? What makes you think that they are qualified to judge whether a translation is good or bad when they don’t know the source language? The only thing they would be able to judge is whether the English is decent. However this isn’t the whole story: the English could be very decent but the meaning completely wrong!

[david33]

You can easily add breaks by using the CTRL+B shortcut or typing < br >

You’re talking about the editing part, I assume because as a simple viewer, you can’t use shortcuts like that. So no, we can’t add breaks manually as a viewer. I thought it was obvious that I’m talking about from a viewer point of view not as a subber because I’m not a subber on Viki.

“Viewers rate subs? What makes you think that they are qualified to judge whether a translation is good or bad when they don’t know the source language?”

That’s true, but on NX you can send bug reports about subs, audio etc. Obviously not everyone can speak Korean, Japanese etc, but you can still see if a sub isn’t that good, like you said. Timing, grammar etc. Also, I’m pretty sure there’s a lot of people who can speak those original languages, so they could send reports. Do you think everyone will do that? 80% of the viewers doesn’t care about quality, they just want everything fast as possible, but the other 20% could make the subs, not only English subs, much better. Like I said, I’m talking about other languages, not English because 90% of the time English subs are good.

[zyxw]

@david33

but I couldn’t care less about studies

@david33

You can’t make a study based on random people’s opinion

Why? The studies should show objective truths, how fast can people read. (we can discuss, if they measure it well, because they may not do it, but I think completely disreagarding it is pointless)
The studies are also NOT made on people’s opinions, but on the eye tracker. It’s used in a lot of experiments (such as constructing the patterns in which people read sentences) and I would call it fairly reliable as a tool.

@david33

Studies made by people who don’t know anything about this

??? I would say it’s exactly the people, who know everything about this. There are people who dedicate their entire careers to topics such as processing words, processing images, how those things connect and other topics. There are entire labs dedicated to bilinguality and reading comprehention.
You can check, if in your area there some labs, they often invite people to take part in their research. You can go and ask them some questions, if you’re interessted in this topic.

@david33

who’s going to make you a quality sub for free?

I know quite a lot of people, who do make quality subs for free.

[bozoli]

I absolutely agree with you! If a study is big enough (large number of participants) and well-designed, I would take its results any day over the opinion of a few. Opinions are biased to say the least.

And I would say that the percentage of viewers really interested in quality subs is closer to 2%, than 10.

[irmar]

@david33

I thought it was obvious that I’m talking about from a viewer point of view

Oh sorry, I totally didn’t think of that, it didn’t even cross my mind that a viewer would want to have control of how the lines are presented. But for this to be implemented, there would have to be two versions of the same subs, one with breaks and one without. Because if you do it with a code, automatically (for instance “cut after X characters”), it would be cut in random parts of the sentence and the result would be ugly and confusing. As you well know, since you’ve done that professionally, there are specific rules on where to divide a sentence.

@david33

90% of the time English subs are good.

Really? I think your percentage is too optimistic. But then, as you said yourself, you haven’t watched a great lot of content here yet. I would say that the quality varies a lot, depending on who is in charge.

[mirjam_465]

@david33

BUT the fact that VIKI doesn’t even want to give an option to everyone says a lot about them. It’s not like giving an option is a hard thing to do. It wouldn’t cost them anything, and writing a code like that for the sub settings would take like a week or so. I know because I worked with devs a lot as a graphic designer.

N.etflix doesn’t give us an option, either.

@david33

Also, it’s not about how fast a viewer can read, it’s about quality. A long line looks bad, to say the least.

In the end, it’s just a matter of taste.

@david33

NX has a lot of bad subs too. Most of the time it happens because they don’t use great QC or a show is translated by more than 1 person

A big difference between Viki and N.etflix is that on Viki, the (volunteer) segmenting, subbing, and editing happens after the episodes have aired. Nowadays, though, a lot of shows come with presubs in English (and more and more also in French, Spanish, and Portuguese), which are either made by paid staff or bought from the content provider. The quality of those presubs varies highly. Some of it is plain machine translation. In most cases, the volunteers get to edit the presubs, but viewers might have already watched the show before they are done. The main reason that Viki has presubs on a lot of shows is the impatience of the viewers. And that is also one of the reasons that the quality is not always great. Yes, some volunteers don’t have the right skills. But the volunteers, especially the good ones, are also under a lot of pressure. Viewers who wouldn’t recognize a grammar mistake if it bit 'm in the *** go berserk if they don’t get their subs ASAP. They don’t care (or don’t know) that the subs are provided by people who work for free, who might have a life outside of Viki. Viki itself has also always been encouraging quantity over quality (to serve their paying viewers) so quality volunteers are often underappreciated.

@david33

Sure, this makes the job faster, especially because one episode can be translated by even 10 people,

That highly depends on the language. Spanish and Portuguese have very big teams (ironically, it’s their languages that nowadays get presubbed), but for some languages, the whole show gets subbed and edited by 1 person because there just aren’t enough volunteers available for that language.

@david33

this is more about other languages

Which ones?

@david33

who’s going to make you a quality sub for free?

You’d be surprised…

@david33

because most of their subbers are doing the job for free, so they can save a lot of money.

As I mentioned, they also have paid subbers. And they are more and more taking over…

[david33]

But for this to be implemented, there would have to be two versions of the same subs, one with breaks and one without. Because if you do it with a code, automatically (for instance “cut after X characters”), it would be cut in random parts of the sentence and the result would be ugly and confusing.

I’m using Sub Edit software for my official subs (and fan subs back in the day) for other platforms, and I’m doing the breaks 95% of the time automatically. It’s all about the settings. Trust me, I’m translating for almost 2 decades. Sure it’s not perfect, that’s why I said 95% of the time it’s working, but an option like this can be helpful for the viewer, especially if they can change the numbers manually. It’s still better than a long line.

Really? I think your percentage is too optimistic

I meant for the shows that I’ve seen so far. Or heard from other people whom I can trust because they’re perfectionists like me.

@mirjam_465

N.etflix doesn’t give us an option, either.

Yeah, but they never used long lines like Viki.

In the end, it’s just a matter of taste.

Not really because you can read 2 lines faster than a long 1 line.

The main reason that Viki has presubs on a lot of shows is the impatience of the viewers

I’m not familiar with pre-subs on Viki, obviously, but I can say that in the past 20 years of my subbing career, a LOT of viewers complained that the subs aren’t done after 5 minute of the release day.
Honestly, that’s why I stopped doing fan subs. Even tho, it helped me to learn other languages. My opinion about this is that if you make subs faster just because the viewers whining, it won’t help anyone. I always said them back in the days: “You want to watch XYZ in the fastest possible way? Then use Google Translate and do it yourself.” Honestly, I couldn’t care less about the whining viewers. I want to make quality subs not fast subs. There’s like 10 streaming platforms where you can watch anything you want. You don’t have to wait weeks for 1 show, just watch another one till the other one is finished and has a good sub.

Which ones?

Well, I’m Hungarian, so that’s the main language that I’m talking about. The Hungarian subs are really bad. Our language is one of the hardest and the most simple in a way because we can shorten a 2 line long English sub into 5 words and the meaning still remains. What I’ve seen is the same word to word subs. For example in Hungary, 95% of the time we don’t have to use pronouns because even without pronouns you can understand who’s talking, or what are they talking about. And this is just one example of shortening a line in our language. Sadly, this is the less irritating part of the Hungarian subs. The translation mistakes are much worse. And again, I’m talking about those subs that I or my trustworthy friends saw.

As I mentioned, they also have paid subbers. And they are more and more taking over…

Well, I really hope that’s the case in other languages too, not only in English. Sure, I can speak English, but I think everyone will agree that watching something in your own language is much better.

[irmar]

@david33

I really hope that’s the case in other languages too

See, if they have to pay for something, it’s likely they will focus on the languages with the more viewers. I don’t see them paying for 20 different languages and if they have to make a choice, Hungarian or Greek or Latvian or Dutch will not be the first to come in their mind.
That’s the uniqueness of Viki: good or bad, some languages don’t have another option - or very few.

@david33

I’m not familiar with pre-subs on Viki,

They are more or less NF-style. Short (leaving out stuff that sometimes gives you more insight on what’s going on), high localization, anglicized names, dishes, appellatives, elimination of hierarchy and everyone speaks with the same style, be it a university professor or a deck worker.

@david33

My opinion about this is that if you make subs faster just because the viewers whining, it won’t help anyone.

Of course we all agree with this! All except for Viki higher-ups, that is! Because impatient viewers threaten to not renew their subscription, and some actually do that. Money talks, my friend!

[david33]

good or bad, some languages don’t have another option - or very few.

To be fair I can understand that. It’s the same thing when a channel or a streaming platform cancel a show because not enough people watch it. It’s not good for the viewers, but in a business POV I can understand it.

They are more or less NF-style…

I hate that. Back in the day I started my translating career with Japanese Anime, Manga and Tv Shows, so I liked to use honorifics as in the original, like: Chan, San, Kun etc. Even tho in my own (Hungarian) language it’s really easy to translate these things and keep the original meaning without any note for the viewer. Not to mention the romanization of the names. As a Hungarian, it’s really easy to learn Asian languages, especially Korean and Japanese because in our language the pronunciations are almost identical. Also, I don’t like when in an English sub someone translate things like: “Unnie” to sister when it’s clearly not always means that but if you just leave “Unnie” in the sub newbie viewers won’t get it what the heck is that. And in my opinion, English is the least creative language and most of the time they either translate these as: “Sister” or “Miss” or something similar. In some cases it can be misleading too. That’s why I want to learn Korean fast because even if there’s a lot of good Eng sub out there, not every translator knows the culture and how they should translate these things.

Money talks, my friend!

Well, yeah, of course, but I would pay more for Viki if they only hire people with good skills and knowledge about the Asian culture. But I’m pretty sure me and other people like me are the minority. Probably like 5% of Viki subscribers.

[irmar]

@david33

I would pay more for Viki if they only hire people with good skills and knowledge about the Asian culture. But I’m pretty sure me and other people like me are the minority. Probably like 5% of Viki subscribers.

Well yes. Especially since EVERYTHING Viki (and NF, and KCW) has can be watched “elsewhere” for free. Of course it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but this means that they are careful to keep the prices reasonable.

As for “eonni”, “oppa” etc., I always take care to explain the first time they appear in a drama, even though this may be annoying for those “in the know”. Newbies deserve our care too. And I expect them to remember that the next time they encounter the term. If they don’t remember, they will see it at the beginning of another show and after 2-3 times they will be “old-timers” as well

[manganese]

@irmar

As for “eonni”, “oppa” etc., I always take care to explain the first time they appear in a drama, even though this may be annoying for those “in the know”. Newbies deserve our care too. And I expect them to remember that the next time they encounter the term. If they don’t remember, they will see it at the beginning of another show and after 2-3 times they will be “old-timers” as well

The feedback on this approach is that people really like these explanations. Provided explanations don’t occur too often, people don’t mind stopping the video to gain a bit of knowledge which is not easily understood without the explanation.

For example, I was an English editor for “History 5: Love In The Future” and the dialogue was…

“I’ve just experienced the 921 earthquake!”

To people familiar with Taiwan, this made sense. To me in Australia, though, I had no idea what a 921 earthquake was. It turns out that on September 21, 1999, Taiwan had a devastating earthquake. Putting a brief note in the subs to explain this the first time it occurred, helped viewers gain context and insight.

[mirjam_465]

@david33

Well, I really hope that’s the case in other languages too, not only in English.

Nowadays, it’s also the case for French, Spanish and Portuguese. One of the consequences is that we are not allowed to fully improve the segmenting anymore cause Viki doesn’t want to lose any other-language subtitle in the process.

@david33

Sure, I can speak English, but I think everyone will agree that watching something in your own language is much better.

Not necessarily. On Viki, I mostly watch with English subs, and on N.etflix primarily Brazilian Portuguese and occasionally Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish. My mothertongue is Dutch. In any case, if I get irritated by the quality of the subtitles, I switch to another language.

[manganese]

@mirjam_465

Not necessarily. On Viki, I mostly watch with English subs, and on N.etflix primarily Brazilian Portuguese and occasionally Swedish, Norwegian or Finnish. My mothertongue is Dutch. In any case, if I get irritated by the quality of the subtitles, I switch to another language.

I’d love to be as talented as you, Mirjam! Your ability with languages is extraordinary.