[Viki Community] We Want Your Feedback

I have been in very popular online shows where the Chief Editor had to release even when our editing wasn’t 100% done, there were about 10-15 sentences which had to be researched and pondered on and discussed between us.
What we told the OL moderators was this:
“We are releasing now, so that your subbers can start the translation. We hope to have the editing done before you get to edit, so that when you edit it will be the finished English version. But in case you are so quick that your edit is over before we finalize our changes, we’ll send you the Post Release edits as soon as possible”
And I send those, as promised, within a couple of days. With exact timing, before version and edited version, everything to make it easy for them to find the exact place of the subtitle just by doing a CTRL+F search on Bulk Editor.
HOWEVER. Sometimes a moderator complains about those post-release edits, saying it’s bothersome.

I remember once an episode like this. I wasn’t in the English team, I was Greek moderator. And there were post-release changes. On Team Discussion, I thanked the English editors for letting us know about those changes, because truthfully those sentences had me scratching my head when I edited the Greek but now they finally made sense. I also thanked them for their commitment to excellence.
However, the Spanish moderator was extremely pissed off and said “Maybe it’s okay for the slow languages, but for us the quick languages, this is extra work” and so on.
I got very pissed off myself, for this “slow languages/quick languages”. From that day I pushed my team to be the very first language to finish - after the Spanish, of course. And we did succeed. At times we were second (after the Spanish), at times we were third (after Spanish and Portuguese), but never below that. And I made it a point of posting on TD to announce it, the moment the Greek edit was complete.
Okay, I was young (on Viki, not in real life!) and childish, this was a few years ago, I had just started as a moderator. Today I would never do such a thing, I now feel secure here, I don’t have to prove anything to anybody. But at that time I felt she was belittling me and all the others who didn’t have 30 people in their team - I had only 6.

Sorry for the digression. But even now, when I’m in the English team, I hear some complaints about post-release edits. We release more quickly than we’d like to for THEIR sake, because of THEIR sub-whiners, who are the loudest - but still they are not satisfied. That’s why some other editors say “who cares, what the hell, we’ll wait to release when we’re completely ready”.

Of course I know that this is not the situation in old interminable Chinese dramas. On the contrary, there are Chinese dramas which OL have started to translate without them being edited because they understood that the English editing would have to wait for months or years. I recently happened to work in two of them, as an Italian subber trainer. (Suddenly This Summer and Waiting for You). It was sometimes extremely hard to understand what was being said, the translation was so bad it gave me a headache. At some point maybe somebody will go back to them and edit the English, but do you think they will bother keeping a list of all the relevant changes of 30 plus episodes? And if they do, that the OL editors will go back and painstakingly visit every episode, search for the exact subtitle to change it? No way! We both know this won’t happen. (Those two dramas were so boring and draggy that I wanted to throw a party when my work on them was over).

To come back to what you wrote…
The AI can adjust without complaining because it’s a machine. If you tell it to work 24/7 it has no choice but do it. But humans will complain.

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Thanks for sharing your experiences :slight_smile:

Maybe it’s not clear enough, what I was thinking about.

VIKI said they want to take pressure away from the volunteers. Their feature of implementing AI translations means that they think it is a good idea to offer subs a) faster and b) also for abandoned projects plus c) right after the English subs hit 100% even without being edited.

When I think about comments and PMs I got from viewers their main thought was:

Why are the English subs already there (sometimes for the whole drama) when our language isn’t? Do you even work on it anymore???

To be sure I checked our subbing progress + the edited and release status for OL teams before writing a reply. We were always quite close to the English release for OL (e.g. 2 episodes unfinished 2-3 days after they were released, which is a good time progress for smaller language teams). For other dramas I got asked although I wasn’t neither a language mod nor a subber there but I knew that all episodes that were released for OL teams were already translated for my language.

So I explained them how VIKI works because the viewers seem to have no clue about that, especially when a drama is finished with English subs.

So instead (or as addition) of using AI translations VIKI could offer some kind of AI grammar/meaning software that proves and compares English subs to OL subs. In that way the OL teams could start subbing earlier and the AI could correct it. I think the sub’s quality would be still better with volunteer teams than with AI translations.

So I think they should think about other options too how to use AI software related to subtitles and faster access for most viewers.

Another aspect is that no matter if it’s about English subs or OL subs - the subs are always visible right after they were written. That means X% of viewers might watch unedited subs anyway, especially those who are eager to watch a new drama.

I think that a software that is more used as some kind of grammar/content/syntax correction tool instead of a 100% translation tool could offer some relief for every language.

(The languages that do not have hundreds of active volunteers always have to decide how they work and what’s their focus: do they want to offer subs in their language for most possible dramas in a short/er amount of time or do they want to focus on editing and 100% perfect subs, related to syntax, etc. … Some moderators already said they need ~2-3 hours for editing just one episode; but the same time could be also used for translating untranslated episodes. So in my opinion VIKI should offer a software that supports the editing and not the translating process. As you could also use writing programs that give advice related to grammar, syntax etc. when you’re writing something in your own language like a short story or so. Such programs do not do your work in the way of thinking, writing chapters, creating characters etc. but they can make the writing process easier in showing if you used wrong spelling, missed something or so. You can also exchange a certain word, e.g. at first you had name X for your character and Y for another and later you realize that the names or one name is not so good because it is too similar to Y and then the software is able to exchange this name within the whole text. Something like that would be really useful and helpful for editing dramas because even when you create a doc, made a list with terms that are used multiple times and should be the same in each episode it happens that person A uses this term but person B not and C uses it but writes it different. So for such things a software would be really good and time saving…)

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As an English editor, I wait for the TE team to pass an episode to me after it was already 95-97% subbed for many days! The origin translators have already subbed most of the new episodes, but the TE team is six episodes behind by a week or more. I only accept the amount of editing jobs that I know I can handle, and I never hold other language moderators hostage. So I would never blame the English editors for the hold-up. The GEs on my team sometimes work until 2 a.m. and they are never behind like the TE team!

Working with pre-subs, I still wait three to four days for the TE team! Once the segmenting team finishes fixing the pre-subs, there are still blanks from missing OST lyrics, signs, text messages, documents, etc.

Our hold-up here at Viki is with our TE teams!!! I would be willing for Viki to pay our qualified, educated Translation Editors so they don’t have to work and just check pre-subs or subbers’ translations.

My hubby translates messages into Czech and he says it’s taxing on the brain and anything auto-generated doesn’t work. The Translation Editors of origin languages MUST HAVE UNIVERSITY KNOWLEDGE OF THEIR LANGUAGE OR EQUIVALENT! I work with TE teams and sometimes none of them can figure out an Ancient Chinese sign. I can ask the segmenter to delete that blank segment in order to release the episode, but I cherish the fact that Viki offers the best subs in Asian dramas! While I edit the episode, I send messages to other TEs I worked with, and someone often comes through with the translation. I never had to resort to getting a segment deleted yet!

Why pay for machine-generated subs when we need quality subs that were checked by humans?

OR we can resort to the standard at other major sites which do not offer the quality or quantity offered by Viki. The quantity is the main reason why I’m at Viki. My second reason is quality. I paid for Pass Plus here in Canada and was pleasantly shocked when Viki gave me free subscription at QC level. High End Crush, for example, was on YT but had nothing of the quality found on Viki. I watched Noble My Love on NF years ago, but it made much more sense on Viki. I thought he was asking her to date unexpectedly because he fell for her, when I watched it on NF, but on Viki I learned it was contract dating! Like how bizarre is that? And let me assure you, I rewind and check details because I detest plot holes!

The other solution I can see is that Viki needs to delete all reviews marking a drama down because of subtitles. We must not enable the abuse of complainers in any way! Most of those complainers do not pay anyhow. Also, since I got QC status, I was able to watch dramas on my computer before the license ended, such as “Will it Snow for Christmas?” QC status means you have early access to dramas. That’s one reason why CMs choose moderators with QC status.

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AI editing human subtitles? The horror! :scream:

Those systems also have a lot of flaws. Any word they don’t know is marked as wrong, they give suggestions that were not even close to what you meant …

Just let AI manage the comment section. Language is for humans. Translating even more so.

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Idea of the year :rofl::rofl::rofl::smiley_cat:

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Hi there @j_ann1789_819 and @mirjam_465,

The service we use at the moment called Disqus has a built-in trust level function that kicks in whenever it thinks some user might be spamming. We have no control over it and this basically leads comments to an approval queue for us to handle daily. On the other hand, there are some words we have identified as being problematic in some cases (it all depends on context) and if a word like it or of a similar structure is identified in a comment, this will also lead the comment to this same approval queue.

We look at this daily so your comment, if it’s not breaking any of our Community Guidelines or community rules, should get approved soon!

Mariliam

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Thanks for the explanation. :slight_smile:

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Thank you for explaining mariliam! So the suggestion of Viki approving comments can’t really work in the way that we were thinking because it’s Disqus that manages the comment section. Anyway, thanks again and yep, my comments were approved :slight_smile:

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It depends on the software. That’s why I wrote you can define how to use it.

Anyway when it’s okay for VIKI to use auto-translated subs why should we humans even bother ourselves anymore?

The whole way the subtitle editor is designed is terrible for editing. I’ve edited many written texts, including written stories in the past and due to the way how the text is and was presented, it took less time to edit a written text than editing some subs on VIKI even when the total amount of words/signs for an episode is less than for a chapter.

Another aspect is when it’s okay to offer auto-translated subs for Spanish and Portuguese viewers right after the English subs hit 100% why should every other viewer wait months to watch a show?

This is kinda biased. And I mention this again because I already got enough comments of German viewers (not only for my projects) who were really sad when they couldn’t continue watching a drama (for months, sometimes more than 6+ months) and weren’t able to watch it in English because their English knowledge is not good enough.

As you see by VIKI’s reply they implement it anyway. Around ~80% of their survey said they understood auto-translated subs and ~ 50% said they’d use it.

So our opinion as language enthusiasts doesn’t count and I doubt that this decision of implementing auto-translated subs will increase the motivation within the volunteer community.

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I’m not a fan of the introduction of auto-subs either. Yet, at least they are supposed to disappear again, once we have enough decent human subs for a show.
But letting an AI agent EDIT our precious subs would mean that the AI agent has “the last word”. Would you want Mr AI to mess up what you so carefully translated? I sure wouldn’t. Depending on how big the team is and what my role in it is, I either edit it myself or trust it to one of my human colleagues. I don’t trust Mr AI with it.

I can imagine the other methods were more convenient. But in that case maybe something needs to change about the subtitle editor.

Ah, but letting Mr AI only edit the OL subs, would still mean waiting for the humans to be done translating, right? So there would either way still be waiting time.

I always thought the German teams were relatively big and could get things done in a reasonable amount of time. :thinking:

It probably won’t … :frowning:

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For the life of me, I cannot grasp why VIKI hasn’t taken care of the rampant problems of Fake Reviews?! Sub-Whiners, Complainers of Restrictions, not to mention the Oppa/Idol Fans, and others who all clog the review sections with nonsense. Why are they endlessly allowed to ruin the review ratings of dramas? Perplexing and absurd.

Enabling complainers? Unfortunately, VIKI is doing exactly that, by pandering to the Sub-Whiners with their AI subbing plans, likely empowering the abusers even more so. (Not to mention the above problem of enabling review abusers).

My heart hurts thinking of our volunteers, enduring this disrespect —yet, consequently my admiration of volunteers grows greatly through their enduring this mess.

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@niennavalar

Depends on what the Spanish and Portuguese communities want after reading Viki official answer and after the test.

  • Either it is finally fine with you

  • Either you are not satisfied and go on strike like last Sept-October and ask other languages to join, because next steps would be to make it global for other popular languages like Italian, French…

  • Either something can be discussed with segmenters, English subbing / editing teams so they don’t complete subbing / editing to avoid AI to operate (skip OST lines, skip previews, skip the end of a drama just not to reach the % for the AI to operate and give the translations by PM. But viewers will have to wait… so it is not convenient.

  • Or segmenters just create empty segments towards the beginning or the end to artificially not reach 90 % or whatever % so the AI doesn’t work for the first 2-3 days of the uploading.

Wonder why it was implemented during holidays.
Wonder why we never heard of this survey. Is it a real survey?
Is it a survey sent to a specific population, like subs whiners or those who recently complained to Viki about subs speed?

Can we have more info on the conditions of the survey?

On which dramas you want to test it?

English teams and OL can take a look and complete it like what has been done for French, that is to say:

After what happened last year with bot subs, the French mod Anna79_9 made a list this year for dramas not completed or given up in French.
People looked at the list, gathered people and completed dramas.

@anna79_9 how many dramas were finished thanks to this document? Can you share it? Ty!

It is not impossible, we just need info, we are not everywhere to check what other teams are doing or need help with. Most of the time, people take care of their own dramas and don’t look when there’s already someone filling the position, except when reporting.

I think it was sent to Spanish and Portuguese volunteers, that’s why the rest of us didn’t hear of it.

Still, if they want to make it global, I guess other languages should also have been able / will also be able to take the survey? Or do they not count?

And did people answer after testing it? Or they based their answer on an AI that is not Viki AI? How and where do the % come from? Under which conditions?
2 tests were planned?

Are they able to understand English to know whether it is the correct translation?

It’s important to know whether the survey was made with:

  • people who “thought that” the translation was understandable but didn’t know whether the translation is really what being said or not.
  • people who “know that” the translation was correct and understandable.

When I ask volunteers whether they’re fluent or no, they all tell me yes.
When I edit, it is another story. Not everyone is conscious of their own mistakes or think it was correct and just looking at the French translation, it seems correct. Now looking at the English sub, the French sub is not correct anymore.

It is assessment that needs someone else with abilities to assess it or a test.
So if the survey was conveyed with people who don’t know enough 2 languages, it won’t be possible to rely on this survey. It is biased from the beginning.

If you have the document of the last talk with Viki, take a look at the 1st pages. You’d be surprised.

Yes, I have it. “Viki Community Call 09.27.2019”, right?
I just read again the first two pages. They actually had said that they’re thinking of machine translation for inactive projects (1 month for library projects, 1 week for on-air) and that they would advise well in advance the moderators so that they know.
They also said what they said now, that they won’t over-write our subs etc.
So there was nothing that surprised me. What were you referring to? Maybe I overlooked it, or was it on the third page?
I have to rush to work right now, I’ll be back this evening to see your reply.

1st page, yup. I don’t remember we talked about that until I took a look. I was “Whaaat?”

We’re still looking for what has been told us:

  • a better identification of inactive channels
  • massive deletion of offensive comments
  • advance notice to team members for bot/AI
  • plan to give early access to volunteers
  • giving the moderation of Disqus comments to some volunteers
  • better enforcement of guidelines and stopping channel hoarding

The other things that have been changed: they are not core problems or the main concern among many concerns volunteers have.

From what I’m reading, the intent or the purpose is not the same than what we have been told at that time, that is to say to use the bot or AI (let’s call it AI because it is not done by volunteers’ brain activity and sensibility) only as a last resource.

Feels like it is presented to us with another title like another product to deviate from the big elephant in the room, but it seems even more suspicious to me LOL I’m becoming maniac by staying here.

They are lucky to have Mariliam to talk with us, not sure it would have been so smooth.

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No, I’m not pro automatic AI changes and decisions. I’d use it in the way I described as configured tool for the editor of that language and in a way that the AI marks segments that were changed by the English teams. So instead of implementing auto-translated subs I’d use it to compare edited English subs with OL subs and then highlight the box so the human editor can easily find and check it (and since I watched many dramas with unedited English subs I doubt that this would cause so much more editing work than now because the unedited English subs aren’t that bad at all. I didn’t have the impression they are completely wrong, it only happens that e.g. the lyrics (wording) of a song were not 100% the same for each episode but the meaning of the lyrics still was the same so it wasn’t a severe thing. On the other hand even after the English edit was done it could happen that some parts weren’t 100% correct - I had this in every project I was working on and I asked more than one native speaker to check it when I had this feeling; sometimes a sentence had a meaning that was not said in the origin dialogue but I usually didn’t message the English team because I felt that they might feel offended when I mention a overlooked line. I also had native speakers in my teams from time to time and each of them asked me if they have to translate/stick to the English subs even when it’s wrong and the origin dialogue says something different. The editing work for German subs done by native Chinese speakers didn’t need much time because I only had to do minor changes like a forgotten comma or changing a letter because of a different case).

If Viki would implement something like a software that is able to compare English with OL subs and highlights the segment fields it could make the work of the OL editors easier and then the OL teams could start translating right after the English subs are done.

In that case what @irmar described (about her work as editor/with English editing teams and creating a doc with the changes that was given to the OL editors) could be done by an AI that highlights the segments.

And then all OL viewers do not have to wait until the English edit is done and there is also no need for auto-translated subs anymore.

They’re not waiting because the German teams don’t work on it they’re waiting because the English teams do not give the GO for OL teams. With the auto-translated subs Spanish and Portuguese could watch shows with subs in their own language while all other languages still have to wait for the GO of the English team = all other languages’ viewers could have a waiting time for months (in some cases, e.g. one drama is 100% subbed in English with all episodes but only 5 episodes are allowed for OL and this situation is like that for months; it frustrates the viewers and also some volunteers because they’re bound to a project that’s not making any progress for months, sometimes the OL teams have to work/wait around a year for finishing a drama because they might get a GO for 1 episode/month or 1 episode/every second month. That might be also the reason that some OL mods and subbers are involved in ‘too many’ projects because they never know how fast it’s going).

I’m only talking about Chinese dramas that usually have ~50 episodes, sometimes even more, rarely less, maybe never? only 10.

So the delay is caused by the amount of time the English teams need for their edit and VIKI wants to solve that by using auto-translated subs (although there are enough Spanish and Portuguese human subbers).

Some posts mentioned that they’d need more editors for the English teams to solve the problem with the release for OL teams. But if that can’t be solved because you cannot summon editors from the netherworld I think instead of using auto-translations they could invest in a tool that detects segments that need to be edited (when you have a 50 episodes long Chinese drama you’ll need much time for editing anyway). So if OL were allowed to start subbing right after the English team hits 100% or let’s say 1 week later the viewers would get human made subs and the editor can do the edit later (with support of highlighted segment fields).

Yes! I really wish for improvements. This whole auto-translated subs AI investment feels quite disappointing because it is not a benefit for the volunteers.

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Bad idea.

Provide poor auto quality subs just as an interim? Viki’s reputation will go down the drain with such a pathetic solution. As a viewer, I would simply give up on the poor auto subs and can’t be bothered to watch the edited proper version later as it would take up too much time.

Have you ever watched some of the legit subscription channels in Youtube like Mango, Tencent, etc? The subs can be horrific.

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I haven’t read everything you guys said, I admit I’m lazy because I’m late in this discussion, with dozens of messages late, so I’ll focus on this issue. Thanks Piranna! I love when you make me write monologues.

So, a few months ago, I had the idea of creating a list to boost a new dynamic in abandoned dramas, dramas without moderators. Here is the topic:Projets à reprendre en modération française : projets abandonnés, libres ou sans licence en France

Here is the updated google doc document (yes because messages are impossible to modify after two months on viki): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TK7xDhHK6m2LkRBP14TL2RsuK_7vPIePgyIZfjkA_lQ/edit#gid=0

First, we have (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TK7xDhHK6m2LkRBP14TL2RsuK_7vPIePgyIZfjkA_lQ/edit#gid=0): a list of projects abandoned by their moderator, projects without moderators with licenses in Europe or only US/Canada. So there are no unlicensed projects in US/Canada and Europe. There are also no abandoned or “break” projects from some moderators.

What is in green are the projects that have found a new moderator. What is in red are projects that have found a new moderator and have been completed. If we count, there are 17 projects that have been completed. Other dramas are still waiting to find people who will take over the drama.

Second, we have (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TK7xDhHK6m2LkRBP14TL2RsuK_7vPIePgyIZfjkA_lQ/edit#gid=1802398227): a list of some projects that are looking for translators because they need them. Of course, there are many more projects looking for translators, but moderators don’t always use this list.

In this list, there are 12 projects that have been completed. It is difficult to know if this made it possible to find contributors, but we can assume so.

Reality is that a tiny part of the French community got involved in this project. Some have really helped and supported this project. But if everyone isn’t contributing, it’s hard to get things done. Personally, each time I receive a message asking to translate on one of my projects where the team is complete, I answer them by giving the list of projects that are looking for translators. If all the moderators did that, it would make a difference.

Another reality is that some do not like this list, and surely think that I am just a bad person who wants to display them publicly (which is not true, since I do this for projects and viewers who are waiting. often answers in the comments, answers that will never come). “viki is a hobby”, “we come when we have the time”, it is totally true! However, the project is not owned by the moderator but by viki for viki viewers, so why not allow those who have the time to do it? That’s my philosophy. So, I decided to do it anyway, because there are already a lot of people who don’t really like me, one more or one less won’t do much for me.

Conclusion: idea is good, but it would work more if everyone supported such a project.

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