Do you watch Chinese dramas too or only/mainly Korean? I cannot say how it’s with Korean dramas but in the rare case one I wanted to watch was available I watched it when it was still airing and without OL (but maybe it was already edited, somehow? It seems there are at least ~2-3 edits, right? So maybe the GO edit for OL is later than the one that already happened when I was watching the episode
I will test that with the next/new on air drama I want to watch (watching it with subs at the moment when they’re visible
Wait, I’m remembering the last survey I took, it was about the accuracy of translations done with auto-translations, Google Translate and from volunteers. Was it that? But there was nothing asking if we were okay with bad subs.
That was definitely the survey but if that’s the case: Where they got that 50% were willing to use the auto-generated subtitles and 50% were not, when you are stating that they never ask you, if you were ok with bad subs?
Do you remember the subtitles used for AGS/G/V? Can you please give us an example if you remember them? Thanks in advance.
Here are some actual examples of pre-subs, then after the Translation Editor TE fixes the subs:
viki | Jan 1
Is it anything related to play tennis?
TE: How does meeting the stone lion at the park gate have anything to do with playing tennis?
viki | Jan 1
Stone lions are rolling
TE: Stone lions roll… Do you mean to see Sun Chao Yue? (Stone lions roll silk balls means good luck comes.)
viki | Jan 1
If the we come to him
directly it will be very
TE: If you instantly replied “going to find Sun Chao Yue,” it would be ten points.
Blank segment for a text message.
TE: [Li Na, look at Kuaishou(video sharing app). I am on the side livestreaming.]
In my experience of working mostly with pre-subs, I found that 1/3 of the drama does not make good sense without the Translation Editor. Working with origin translators, my GEs remarked that our Viki translators have superior English.
I have watched shows with pre-subs, and I could fairly understand what was happening. Many other people could not. Honestly, I think it would be a minority who would actually benefit from having auto-generated subs. I believe it would be in Viki’s best interest to serve the majority in the best way possible.
It’s related to this topic we had a few months ago:
I forgot, but we have to look for Mariliam’s answer. Her answer if I remember correctly was that pre-subs in English were from the content provider.
I don’t think they are from an AI, but I am not 100 % sure of that.
Did you change your stance or change a little your perpective on pre-subs after volunteering a little more on Viki or having more exp/get more acquainted with other TEs and subbers?
To come back to OL auto-subs (I think they say English subs were safe for the moment, no auto-subs planned for them), your ex shows that it’s important that the auto-bot is activated after the English edition for this pre-subbed drama? I’m not on this drama, so I don’t know the proportion, I would just believe it’s about 1/3, the proportion you gave. What about other pre-subbed dramas?
We still don’t know the dramas where they plan to use auto-subs, but reading Mariliam’s answer again, from what I’ve understood: it’s something related to abandoned dramas? Or dramas where the English edition is not complete yet.
But it would be always wrong to subtitle for us or for the AI if the English edition is not done (at least in your case?)
So I wonder why not giving the go for other languages so they begin to translate when the English edition takes more than XXX time for example?
But it implies OL have to edit after English edition?
K drama or movies which are pre-subbed before uploading at viki are usually done by human subtitlers paid by the broadcaster or the production company. I am not aware of any which were subbed by AI. The subbers are not viki employees even though each sub will say “viki” as the subber. For example, if it is an older subtitled movie that you can see on youtube, the subs we get will often be identical.
On dramas which were not attractive to the volunteers was I asked that if we did not reach 90% English within 24 hours of actual upload time, the paid subbers could complete the episode. If we reached 90% within the 24 hours, the paid subbers were not to touch the episode at all. I insisted on “actual upload time” because sometimes uploads have been delayed for 24-36 hours. Even when the episodes didn’t have enough subbers to complete the episodes, I wanted volunteers to continue to have the opportunity to subtitle. I think our volunteers subbers are the best, but sometimes the timing isn’t right or, more often, the drama and the cast don’t attract enough subbers, and I recognize viki is a business site which is providing entertainment to an international audience which needs the subtitles.
Yes, I agree with you that it’s a company with volunteers, that’s why I also agreed to have Viki staff subber intervened at that time when it was not completed fully by volunteers after 24 h, that is to say on Kdramas and on Cdramas, because there are also viewers and OL that want to sub.
If we agree on that for English, why can’t we agree on that for OL?
Can’t we do the same for OL?
That is to say, if it’s not completed fully by OL volunteers after XXX time after actual releasing by English editors, we agree that AI intervenes on an advance notice from Viki?
It is the same concept, adapted to OL? If it’s okay with English, it could be also okay with OL?
Abandoned dramas and AI:
I still think if the AI operates on abandoned dramas, what the French community did after the bot incident can inspire Viki or OL communities.
A list where Viki wants quick subs because it was abandoned or the English edition is not complete.
There would be completion by volunteers and since Portuguese and Spanish are more than French ones, the proportion of 17 dramas/movies complete in 3 months for French might be far better with Portuguese and Spanish and faster.
For me, the gain is not really good because it’s already an abandoned drama, so that one day, suddenly the AI shows subs or the volunteers do it fast because of the given pressure from AI and Viki, I mean the gained time on an abandoned drama is relative for a viewer after waiting XXX time already. Would there be a difference?
I think there is more gain because it would calm volunteers and keep peace with them + having quick subs for viewers because I think the Spanish and Portuguese teams, after this ep, would want to complete them like what we did in French.
It is better to have volunteers in their pockets than having the risk of a strike going on for Portuguese, Spanish, other languages and I think the reputation of quality is something that can’t be sacrificed for this small gain on abandoned dramas.
Just info, we need info and Viki telling us, I need quick subs on this.
When I tell my mods to complete it or to go take a look, some of them do and some of them don’t do.
It’s managing teams, the community.
I also let them the choice: subtitle yourself, recruit or just stay as subtitler because at least, I won’t be behind them with a deadline. Giving more possibilities/alternatives for them than just AI, no?
I might miss something in reading your comment, but isn’t that what is happening right now?
And you are talking about on air channels now? In the first test they will not be included.
But as far as I understood Viki the AI program relies on written subtitles.
Are you back with AI subtitles in the subtitle editor segments, so the mistakes, that will take place will have to be edited by people?
Since now the AI translations will be on another “sheet” that will not touch the subtitle editor segments?
Or do you actually mean that these AI translations should only be visible after the English translations set time is up in addition to another set time for the OLs, if the set time of the both teams is up and the subtitles are not at let’s say 90 %, then and only then should the AI translations show until the OL is done?
I am a bit confused now and might not read your comment carefully enough, so could you verify this?
How is it the same concept? It’s definitely NOT the same. Professional subbers who come to help are humans, not AI. This makes all the difference! We would probably be okay with human OL translators coming to help.
It depends on the CM or the editors for the GO.
Some CM / editors agree, some not.
I didn’t agree on 1 and same with my co-CM who is also experimented.
The reason was:
it was an historical drama (some technicity),
We saw TE, GE, CE changed a lot of subs
editors were active on the drama: weekly (I think the main concern of this matter was quickness again, which I can understand)
We also asked for their advice (or was it the CE’d advice?): she/they told us it was better to answer to wait after their edition.
Trust: I was not sure there would be a complete edition of this drama because I didn’t know enough the volunteer because it was the first time we worked together (the mod I picked). So if the English editors changed a lot and then the OL editor doesn’t edit, this is bad and the project will stay like this.
I mean, people can say all they want, but with experience, you know that it doesn’t mean anything if people don’t attach importance to what they say. The only thing that is important and that we all see: results.
Only after checking that, I finally said no with my co-CM, though I also contemplated saying yes, or else I wouldn’t bother checking the possibility of doing it.
It’s not that I’m against the idea of OL subbing before complete edition, because I’ve already been a subber (just a subber) in dramas where we were waiting for months and I asked if we could just finish it without English edition (which was accepted, it was a modern drama, so the technicity was not the same (probabiliy they could get it wrong), there was really little hope that the English editors would come back after months of inactivity and the French mod was editing later.
==> This is what volunteers are checking when we are used to subbing, editing, problems in team and how it works. It’s a long chain. I am not sure Viki checks that, but it’s also important to consider that because people complain yes about the speed, but when it’s not speed, it’s complains about the quality of subs. So in all cases, there will be complains. Just that if you pick one solution, there won’t be complains about speed & quality in a longer term (second solution). I see more gain because we only sub it once and edit it once, exceptionally twice for OL. If the first inkjet is wrong and there is no proofreader, then it will stay as it is and we all know the importance of editors. I mean we even asked for a specific position for that, why did we ask that if not recognizing their importance? So this is my pov.
All that to say:
For this to work, it should become a rule said by Viki so CM, editors or I can’t say no to teams that want to complete them before English edition and the teams have to get the XXX time written somewhere as a general rule, otherwise no one will respect it, it has to be written to have a universal value.
It’s for later! Because when it’s not on air anymore or even when it’s an old title that comes suddenly on Viki, it could become an abandoned drama because it was not complete. The goal is not add dramas in this abandoned library, and for that, it’s only possible if people know that after XXX time, the AI will come.
I also think that since a few years, there are more and more AI tests (the bulb suggestions for subtitles, the suggestions for subs directly on the sub editor, the Viki bot and now this…), I don’t think the idea of using AI will be given up soon on Viki. So I think there will be other tests conducted, even if it might not be this AI, it will be another one.
So can we avoid it or work with it but under certain conditions?
Irmar said another alternative that is to say: recruiting human OL translators.
But maybe not for Spanish and Portuguese? They’re quite the number and they already proved they worked fast? So why a company like Viki would spend money on this? That’s also one of the reasons they consider AI and volunteers exist in their ecosystem, no?
When we think about solutions, if Viki intervenes (their staff or their AI), it should be after human intervention, yes, that is what I wanted to say.
You’re right, humans are not AI, that’s why we are against it.
AI subs won’t be tangled with our subs, but reading different opinions, it’s easy it will have other aftereffects that we don’t want (concerns people voiced about quality, motivation/demotivation for volunteers, welcoming, not rewatching for viewers, reputation…). We understand that there are 3 parts in there: viewers, Viki but also us, volunteers.
That explains all our acts or how we react: if we didn’t care, why would we voice our concerns about quality, why would we agree for Viki staff subber to come after 24 h, why would we try to improve the website, why we would take our time to moderate Disqus comments, timed comments? Why would I care for Spanish, Portuguese or do something with an academy? I mean, it just shows how much we finally care not only about volunteers to do this well, but also viewers, no? I mean why do we subtitle if not for viewers to understand or to share it with them? Would we not care, just measure the time we spent, it is an indicator.
What Mariliam said:
Another quote from Viki (first post):
So, how will auto-translated subtitles work?
We intend to translate volunteer-created English subs into whichever language is currently in-progress / less than 90%. We’ll focus on Spanish and Portuguese first, because that way we’re able to serve the most viewers who want fast access to subtitles.
If an episode’s volunteer subs are in-progress, viewers will see an extra option to watch with auto-translated subs(Piranna: it’s only possible if it’s edited in English and released or there is a Viki rule that allows us to subtitle before English edition after xxx time). They’ll still see volunteer subs by default, and can choose to watch with volunteer subs if they want to. If they choose to watch with auto-translated subs, we’ll make it super obvious that our volunteers are working hard to bring amazing, high-quality subs to viewers. Once volunteer subs reach 90%, we’ll remove auto-translated ones, since their purpose will have been fulfilled.
I have understood that, I might be wrong, just correct me if that’s the case:
English subs 100 % (edited or not?)
AI subs 100 % first
Volunteers subs second. When volunteers subs reach 90-100 % (don’t know the real proportion), the AI subsides.
That’s why people said, what’s the use for volunteers to even subtitle if people are going to watch auto-subs? Or how many will come back to watch volunteers sub a second time?
So we might not have a step 3. or volunteers subs anymore or new volunteers because it is auto-subbed?
People ask me to subtitle, because it’s not subtitled. Once it is auto-subbed, would new people want to contribute? Maybe not long term volunteers who knew the old system, but like new ones who see these auto-subs?
Also for training new volunteers, some people use abandoned dramas.
Let’s not talk about restrictions, Viki pass for new volunteers looking for channels to begin with.
Have I understood correctly or I’m telling something crazy? You make me doubt LOL
That’s why I always name one thing subtitles (by volunteers or at least human) and the other AI translation so not to mix the both, since at the end they are not placed in the segment editor. As far as I understood
Yes, the AI translation uses the English subtitles as base, so as you wrote it edited or not. Actually I went back and didn’t find a number at which the English subtitles are use, we talked about completed, but in earlier time, we considered “completed” around 97%.
And the AI is flexible, when edits do happen it can make changes instantly. Whatever the number …
I guess this is what you meant with 1. and 2.
Well the English-speaking volunteers sub first.
OL volunteers are to sub like before after they get the GO and when OL subtitles reach 90% the AI translation will disappear.
Who knows what the result will be for the future, it’s an experiment on selected older stuff right now, thankfully not right into the on-air projects.
The worries that some new subbers will when tested use the AI translation as reference is given, but we can only voice it.
LOL Why did you think Rakuten had an interest in Viki in the first place because it is a fish tank full of information about translation not only for one or two languages to boot. Rakuten is big in the business for auto-translation. You never looked that up?
That was not my intention.
I don’t think you wrote crazy stuff, it is and will be a sensitive issue. The Viki staffers wouldn’t have written it so carefully, if they weren’t aware of it.
You’re normally more optimist than I, when I read your comment, I don’t feel more cheerful LOL
Yeah, they told us it’s a first test like they would use it as a last resource, took care of abusers, hoarding, plans about that and that. It’s complicated and mixed feelings when you see things that don’t advance, normally you seek help or you do it yourself if you can or if it’s a job, you just change companies if you can or departement.
Here, what can we do? We care enough to stay a little or suggest things or still work it out (or go on strike, but why can’t we just do something productive for all?), but it’s this feeling of being unable to do anything that I dislike the most on Viki. This is why in my life, if I ever felt that again, I know I have to change something or flee or do some meditation LOL It brings us discomfort in what volunteers do, it’s not a nice feeling.
I don’t know, it’s not my decision and we wait for the test and for Spanish and Portuguese results, decisions.
If other languages where the AI is not good and English subs are getting delayed for xxx time, I don’t know. We did it once last year for the Viki bot: French subs were not complete for a long time on some dramas, they thought it was abandoned. Some were not, they were waiting for English edition (like can you imagine Viki doesn’t know their volunteers workflow? Huh?), some really were though and they just put the Viki bot for translations. We were notified the same day and the Viki bot subs appeared the same day LOL The Viki bot subs were not really correct. People made a sheet, provided examples, even Irmar helped us, Cgwm too, Angel was there too against Viki bot subs in Spanish, like a lot of non-French volunteers helped us and it was just really nice from them, because we felt that we were like a real community despite our differences. Like many others, you can check the topic “Machine translation”, you see a lot of people have participated, all their names+posts are there.
What was also not nice was for remaining subbers or teams who were waiting for English edition or who were struggling with completing it. I have no drama I moderate in this category, on the contrary, a few of us normally go on these dramas to do exactly what they wanted, that is to say to COMPLETE abandoned dramas, but I have received this message because I was a subber on a drama having a problem with English subs, so we couldn’t continue and the Fr moderator was inactive, so it was not nice to receive that official message from Viki for remaining subbers who didn’t know anything and that were active on the website LOL
Later, we had a call with Viki where we could see them in their company! They said sorry in the name of Viki. I found Mariliam really patient and other staff were sometimes asking questions or taking notes, we mostly talk with Mariliam. I feel sorry for them to be there and we are there on the other side. They just do what they are told to do like in any company where you work (I also work so I understand). So when I say “them”, it’s “Viki”, not them, these people personally because I don’t know them lol
If the intent is completing abandoned dramas, one of the solutions is getting inspired by French community after this episode: Anna made a list, mods helped to complete dramas of the list and still today, she updates this list and French mods and subbers are currently helping on 16 dramas/movies that were abandoned or were without Fr mod. It would be nice if this info could be given by Viki, I don’t know if that’s possible, but Anna had to go through all the website to find these dramas and often checks/updates that list.
There was also a flower movement? (Is it the name of it?)
Lutra, Cgwm and probably some others can talk about it (If I forget others’ name, sorry, I was not there!).
Optimist, me? Well more like pragmatist … I was an optimist at Viki at the start, when we still had the option to have topics included on our profile, you would just have the topic with translation notes for a drama there and when it was finished you could delete it again, that was so practical but now the notes in the channel used by all would make that topic explode.
When we would make games and interact with the crowd that was waiting for the subtitles, when we sometimes had subbers that were so swift, that they would translate while watching and in 2!!! hours an episode was actually done. Or one subber was so dedicated to a project (historical at that), that she would sub the drama all by herself, maybe it took some hours, or maybe she had to take a break, but there weren’t many that were rushing her and when there were others talking/explaining. That was when all technical staff was a part of Viki since comments are outsourced, you need to use ***** sheets for translation notes or other communication systems to stay in touch with the team members there is a feeling that the community is breaking apart. And can’t say that I am an optimist, I just don’t want to see, I try to stay positive but in all these years it gets tyring. I had a lot of contacts with Viki and there were many changes in staff too, just the years that it finally appears to be more stable. And is back in communicating to volunteers at a level we kind of feel like respected. But there were too many incidents to be too optimistic, since we only can act on what is given to us …
The Flower Power Movement - oh, the memories. A lot of French volunteers who are no longer active - LOL - Vive la revolution! The spirit was there. You could join a strike, or the discussion or “only” show your support by adding flowers to your profile picture.
I don’t recall reading anything about that happening “automatically”. They should probably have to “run” it again. Is this contemplated?
Because there are, it seems, many dramas where the Spanish and Portuguese is not complete, especially old ones that nobody cares about. That’s the whole point, why they thought of using AI.
So what I’m saying is, instead of AI, bring on some professional humans.
No idea. But I’ve often read posts about that by certain people here on Discussions. It seems that it mostly affects long Chinese dramas, as is to be expected. You must also have read those posts.
And of course Viki found some to experiment on.
Ah, you’re right. That must be it, for sure.
In theory it’s cool, but … There is a problem there. In an average episode of 600-900 segments, the first General Editing can easily be 200. Of these, if the subbers are good, many will just be typos and formatting, or a minor change of word order, or a word substitution. Only about 10 would change the sentence in a very radical way and are meaningful for the OL.
Even the post-release edits, can be as many as 50 or more, but I only send 5-10 to the OL. Why? Because the rest of the changes will make no difference whatsoever in translation so there’s no point on knowing about them.
However, if AI points out each and every change to the OL editor, including spaces, hyphens or typos etc, it will be very tiresome, because the poor OL editor will have to go through all these things which have nothing to do with her or him. A total waste of time! My guess is that after a while the OL editors will learn to completely disregard the warnings about change (like the shepherd and the wolf in the story), thus missing out the important ones that it’s crucial to change.