Idea of the year
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Thanks for the explanation.
Thank you for explaining mariliam! So the suggestion of Viki approving comments can’t really work in the way that we were thinking because it’s Disqus that manages the comment section. Anyway, thanks again and yep, my comments were approved
It depends on the software. That’s why I wrote you can define how to use it.
Anyway when it’s okay for VIKI to use auto-translated subs why should we humans even bother ourselves anymore?
The whole way the subtitle editor is designed is terrible for editing. I’ve edited many written texts, including written stories in the past and due to the way how the text is and was presented, it took less time to edit a written text than editing some subs on VIKI even when the total amount of words/signs for an episode is less than for a chapter.
Another aspect is when it’s okay to offer auto-translated subs for Spanish and Portuguese viewers right after the English subs hit 100% why should every other viewer wait months to watch a show?
This is kinda biased. And I mention this again because I already got enough comments of German viewers (not only for my projects) who were really sad when they couldn’t continue watching a drama (for months, sometimes more than 6+ months) and weren’t able to watch it in English because their English knowledge is not good enough.
As you see by VIKI’s reply they implement it anyway. Around ~80% of their survey said they understood auto-translated subs and ~ 50% said they’d use it.
So our opinion as language enthusiasts doesn’t count and I doubt that this decision of implementing auto-translated subs will increase the motivation within the volunteer community.
I’m not a fan of the introduction of auto-subs either. Yet, at least they are supposed to disappear again, once we have enough decent human subs for a show.
But letting an AI agent EDIT our precious subs would mean that the AI agent has “the last word”. Would you want Mr AI to mess up what you so carefully translated? I sure wouldn’t. Depending on how big the team is and what my role in it is, I either edit it myself or trust it to one of my human colleagues. I don’t trust Mr AI with it.
I can imagine the other methods were more convenient. But in that case maybe something needs to change about the subtitle editor.
Ah, but letting Mr AI only edit the OL subs, would still mean waiting for the humans to be done translating, right? So there would either way still be waiting time.
I always thought the German teams were relatively big and could get things done in a reasonable amount of time.
It probably won’t …
For the life of me, I cannot grasp why VIKI hasn’t taken care of the rampant problems of Fake Reviews?! Sub-Whiners, Complainers of Restrictions, not to mention the Oppa/Idol Fans, and others who all clog the review sections with nonsense. Why are they endlessly allowed to ruin the review ratings of dramas? Perplexing and absurd.
Enabling complainers? Unfortunately, VIKI is doing exactly that, by pandering to the Sub-Whiners with their AI subbing plans, likely empowering the abusers even more so. (Not to mention the above problem of enabling review abusers).
My heart hurts thinking of our volunteers, enduring this disrespect —yet, consequently my admiration of volunteers grows greatly through their enduring this mess.
Depends on what the Spanish and Portuguese communities want after reading Viki official answer and after the test.
Either it is finally fine with you
Either you are not satisfied and go on strike like last Sept-October and ask other languages to join, because next steps would be to make it global for other popular languages like Italian, French…
Either something can be discussed with segmenters, English subbing / editing teams so they don’t complete subbing / editing to avoid AI to operate (skip OST lines, skip previews, skip the end of a drama just not to reach the % for the AI to operate and give the translations by PM. But viewers will have to wait… so it is not convenient.
Or segmenters just create empty segments towards the beginning or the end to artificially not reach 90 % or whatever % so the AI doesn’t work for the first 2-3 days of the uploading.
Wonder why it was implemented during holidays.
Wonder why we never heard of this survey. Is it a real survey?
Is it a survey sent to a specific population, like subs whiners or those who recently complained to Viki about subs speed?
Can we have more info on the conditions of the survey?
On which dramas you want to test it?
English teams and OL can take a look and complete it like what has been done for French, that is to say:
After what happened last year with bot subs, the French mod Anna79_9 made a list this year for dramas not completed or given up in French.
People looked at the list, gathered people and completed dramas.
@anna79_9 how many dramas were finished thanks to this document? Can you share it? Ty!
It is not impossible, we just need info, we are not everywhere to check what other teams are doing or need help with. Most of the time, people take care of their own dramas and don’t look when there’s already someone filling the position, except when reporting.
I think it was sent to Spanish and Portuguese volunteers, that’s why the rest of us didn’t hear of it.
Still, if they want to make it global, I guess other languages should also have been able / will also be able to take the survey? Or do they not count?
And did people answer after testing it? Or they based their answer on an AI that is not Viki AI? How and where do the % come from? Under which conditions?
2 tests were planned?
Are they able to understand English to know whether it is the correct translation?
It’s important to know whether the survey was made with:
- people who “thought that” the translation was understandable but didn’t know whether the translation is really what being said or not.
- people who “know that” the translation was correct and understandable.
When I ask volunteers whether they’re fluent or no, they all tell me yes.
When I edit, it is another story. Not everyone is conscious of their own mistakes or think it was correct and just looking at the French translation, it seems correct. Now looking at the English sub, the French sub is not correct anymore.
It is assessment that needs someone else with abilities to assess it or a test.
So if the survey was conveyed with people who don’t know enough 2 languages, it won’t be possible to rely on this survey. It is biased from the beginning.
If you have the document of the last talk with Viki, take a look at the 1st pages. You’d be surprised.
Yes, I have it. “Viki Community Call 09.27.2019”, right?
I just read again the first two pages. They actually had said that they’re thinking of machine translation for inactive projects (1 month for library projects, 1 week for on-air) and that they would advise well in advance the moderators so that they know.
They also said what they said now, that they won’t over-write our subs etc.
So there was nothing that surprised me. What were you referring to? Maybe I overlooked it, or was it on the third page?
I have to rush to work right now, I’ll be back this evening to see your reply.
1st page, yup. I don’t remember we talked about that until I took a look. I was “Whaaat?”
We’re still looking for what has been told us:
- a better identification of inactive channels
- massive deletion of offensive comments
- advance notice to team members for bot/AI
- plan to give early access to volunteers
- giving the moderation of Disqus comments to some volunteers
- better enforcement of guidelines and stopping channel hoarding
The other things that have been changed: they are not core problems or the main concern among many concerns volunteers have.
From what I’m reading, the intent or the purpose is not the same than what we have been told at that time, that is to say to use the bot or AI (let’s call it AI because it is not done by volunteers’ brain activity and sensibility) only as a last resource.
Feels like it is presented to us with another title like another product to deviate from the big elephant in the room, but it seems even more suspicious to me LOL I’m becoming maniac by staying here.
They are lucky to have Mariliam to talk with us, not sure it would have been so smooth.
No, I’m not pro automatic AI changes and decisions. I’d use it in the way I described as configured tool for the editor of that language and in a way that the AI marks segments that were changed by the English teams. So instead of implementing auto-translated subs I’d use it to compare edited English subs with OL subs and then highlight the box so the human editor can easily find and check it (and since I watched many dramas with unedited English subs I doubt that this would cause so much more editing work than now because the unedited English subs aren’t that bad at all. I didn’t have the impression they are completely wrong, it only happens that e.g. the lyrics (wording) of a song were not 100% the same for each episode but the meaning of the lyrics still was the same so it wasn’t a severe thing. On the other hand even after the English edit was done it could happen that some parts weren’t 100% correct - I had this in every project I was working on and I asked more than one native speaker to check it when I had this feeling; sometimes a sentence had a meaning that was not said in the origin dialogue but I usually didn’t message the English team because I felt that they might feel offended when I mention a overlooked line. I also had native speakers in my teams from time to time and each of them asked me if they have to translate/stick to the English subs even when it’s wrong and the origin dialogue says something different. The editing work for German subs done by native Chinese speakers didn’t need much time because I only had to do minor changes like a forgotten comma or changing a letter because of a different case).
If Viki would implement something like a software that is able to compare English with OL subs and highlights the segment fields it could make the work of the OL editors easier and then the OL teams could start translating right after the English subs are done.
In that case what @irmar described (about her work as editor/with English editing teams and creating a doc with the changes that was given to the OL editors) could be done by an AI that highlights the segments.
And then all OL viewers do not have to wait until the English edit is done and there is also no need for auto-translated subs anymore.
They’re not waiting because the German teams don’t work on it they’re waiting because the English teams do not give the GO for OL teams. With the auto-translated subs Spanish and Portuguese could watch shows with subs in their own language while all other languages still have to wait for the GO of the English team = all other languages’ viewers could have a waiting time for months (in some cases, e.g. one drama is 100% subbed in English with all episodes but only 5 episodes are allowed for OL and this situation is like that for months; it frustrates the viewers and also some volunteers because they’re bound to a project that’s not making any progress for months, sometimes the OL teams have to work/wait around a year for finishing a drama because they might get a GO for 1 episode/month or 1 episode/every second month. That might be also the reason that some OL mods and subbers are involved in ‘too many’ projects because they never know how fast it’s going).
I’m only talking about Chinese dramas that usually have ~50 episodes, sometimes even more, rarely less, maybe never? only 10.
So the delay is caused by the amount of time the English teams need for their edit and VIKI wants to solve that by using auto-translated subs (although there are enough Spanish and Portuguese human subbers).
Some posts mentioned that they’d need more editors for the English teams to solve the problem with the release for OL teams. But if that can’t be solved because you cannot summon editors from the netherworld I think instead of using auto-translations they could invest in a tool that detects segments that need to be edited (when you have a 50 episodes long Chinese drama you’ll need much time for editing anyway). So if OL were allowed to start subbing right after the English team hits 100% or let’s say 1 week later the viewers would get human made subs and the editor can do the edit later (with support of highlighted segment fields).
Yes! I really wish for improvements. This whole auto-translated subs AI investment feels quite disappointing because it is not a benefit for the volunteers.
Provide poor auto quality subs just as an interim? Viki’s reputation will go down the drain with such a pathetic solution. As a viewer, I would simply give up on the poor auto subs and can’t be bothered to watch the edited proper version later as it would take up too much time.
Have you ever watched some of the legit subscription channels in Youtube like Mango, Tencent, etc? The subs can be horrific.
I haven’t read everything you guys said, I admit I’m lazy because I’m late in this discussion, with dozens of messages late, so I’ll focus on this issue. Thanks Piranna! I love when you make me write monologues.
So, a few months ago, I had the idea of creating a list to boost a new dynamic in abandoned dramas, dramas without moderators. Here is the topic:Projets à reprendre en modération française : projets abandonnés, libres ou sans licence en France
Here is the updated google doc document (yes because messages are impossible to modify after two months on viki): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TK7xDhHK6m2LkRBP14TL2RsuK_7vPIePgyIZfjkA_lQ/edit#gid=0
First, we have (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TK7xDhHK6m2LkRBP14TL2RsuK_7vPIePgyIZfjkA_lQ/edit#gid=0): a list of projects abandoned by their moderator, projects without moderators with licenses in Europe or only US/Canada. So there are no unlicensed projects in US/Canada and Europe. There are also no abandoned or “break” projects from some moderators.
What is in green are the projects that have found a new moderator. What is in red are projects that have found a new moderator and have been completed. If we count, there are 17 projects that have been completed. Other dramas are still waiting to find people who will take over the drama.
Second, we have (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TK7xDhHK6m2LkRBP14TL2RsuK_7vPIePgyIZfjkA_lQ/edit#gid=1802398227): a list of some projects that are looking for translators because they need them. Of course, there are many more projects looking for translators, but moderators don’t always use this list.
In this list, there are 12 projects that have been completed. It is difficult to know if this made it possible to find contributors, but we can assume so.
Reality is that a tiny part of the French community got involved in this project. Some have really helped and supported this project. But if everyone isn’t contributing, it’s hard to get things done. Personally, each time I receive a message asking to translate on one of my projects where the team is complete, I answer them by giving the list of projects that are looking for translators. If all the moderators did that, it would make a difference.
Another reality is that some do not like this list, and surely think that I am just a bad person who wants to display them publicly (which is not true, since I do this for projects and viewers who are waiting. often answers in the comments, answers that will never come). “viki is a hobby”, “we come when we have the time”, it is totally true! However, the project is not owned by the moderator but by viki for viki viewers, so why not allow those who have the time to do it? That’s my philosophy. So, I decided to do it anyway, because there are already a lot of people who don’t really like me, one more or one less won’t do much for me.
Conclusion: idea is good, but it would work more if everyone supported such a project.
I can only talk about me, as a Portuguese volunteer I did not receive such survey. Or they know I’m not an auto-translations enthusiast so they let me out, it could be possible.
Wait, I’m remembering the last survey I took, it was about the accuracy of translations done with auto-translations, Google Translate and from volunteers. Was it that? But there was nothing asking if we were okay with bad subs.
If I were to guess, I would say that this is what they did.
Yes, thanks to that list, in 5 months, 17 complete projects, it makes it to 3 dramas complete per month and I participated only 1 + 16 dramas/movies have been taken over in 5 months and are being subbed right now = 33 dramas/movies in 5 months!
So if more people participated and more often, imagine how many projects could be complete in 1 month!
It is important to underline that the French community did efforts after the bot incident:
identify abandoned channels or channels that need help with moderating and subbing (mod and sub positions together)
promote it in the community and keeping it updated
official opening of the French subbing academy 1 month and half after the Viki bot incident! Less than 2 months! (We really fought to open this academy. To give you numbers, 9 months after the academy opened: 157 subtitlers applied, 67 have been taken care of by a sensei or have not answered, 13 graduated. A lot applied but didn’t answer later to begin their training. I think it is also because they have to wait before a sensei can take them under his wing.)
French mods I know (not subbers) are translating on dramas they moderate to have subtitles in 24-72 hours. They also have a job or are senseis and are editing elsewhere, making cover pages… they can do that until 1-2 a.m.!
How can the French community feel their efforts appreciated?
Note: we didn’t see intervention on Viki side for this, though it was the main concern of Viki at that time during Viki bot. We did try to find solutions on our own to satisfy Viki and viewers.
Also, let’s remind the goal of this academy is to allow new and old subbers to feel more confident on Viki, to ask questions, to be able to improve if they want to, to be assessed and have more opportunities on Viki, in teams where it can be hard to enter.
It is important to keep the community growing, and make them feel welcome and transmit this passion.
If using AI, it is like asking AI to paint, to write after analyzing Picasso or Orwell. It exists, but the beauty lies in masterpieces done by humans.
Don’t delegate something that is a passion for us. Don’t delegate hobbies, that is the answer.
I would accept a substitute only if the channel is inactive after 1 week. You can lock the epidodes in French during 1 week until it is fully 100 % subbed or 95% subbed so no one complains.
What bothers me with this idea is that volunteers who have been always at Viki’s side since its creation seem now to be relegated or overshadowed by AI. AI first, volunteers second.
Why should we intervene once there are auto-subs?
Why don’t auto-subs intervene in supplement to support us when the human intervention is not enough quick?
Why not this way instead?
Or is there a need that auto-subs are done before to be compared with the subs humans do secondly to improve AI until the surveys show that 90-95 % find AI accurate enough and can do without volunteers?
THANK YOU so much for seeing both sides of the coin in an objective manner. Although you are not a fan of the auto-bot you understand the wants of the so called here ‘‘sub whiners.’’ of having the pleasure of seeing subs faster in the drama. I’m not taking their side either bc I’m one of those ''sub whiner myself but it’s much more bc as paying(customers) subscribers, I feel they have the right to complain.
Many here want to criticize them so much for not have any interest in quality in the subs, but the ‘‘whiners’’ don’t care about grammar or let’s say; the perfection in editing the translation, if it’s going to take a whole week before they can see any subtitles in a on air drama, no less!
Someone here said it takes 1 to 2 days for subs to be added in dramas, and that’s a lie bc to this day the earliest a drama takes to have subs in here is from 3 to 4 days(if we are lucky). If the drama airs on a weekend, it’s worst bc I never seen a single subtitle on dramas during the weekend until Monday. Like there is this one on air drama it kept saying today was uploaded but it was around 10% in the night/ it was 30% the next day again very at late night/ 60% after the 3rd.day then it stopped completely for one whole day before it was 93%. But there was so many empty segments in between I know that 60% was about 45% and the 93% was about 60 to 70% only. I’m still waiting for them to add the rest to finish that episode.
For these sub whiners and even myself; if the AI can give them/me a halfway decent sentence/subtitle, that we can halfway understand, the translation is good enough for them/me too. I think we are happy with that. I know for a fact that depending on the software name of the AI some are great, and some are very mediocre in their translations. Hopefully, they’ll get a decent one here.
I remember that on YT they had one of my favorite dramas but it had those horrible google translation subs (THIS was more than a year ago and they have improved a lot now). I really don’t care as long a at least half of the subtitle make sense, and bc of that I was able to watch/view all 16 episodes of the drama. It took more than a year before the drama was available here at this site, and although it had better quality subtitles I didn’t bothered to watch it again bc I understood the google ‘‘weird’’ subs.
I understand the volunteer’s frustration that they’re ‘‘killing’’ themselves doing all these work to provide the best subs, and I believe most whiners won’t even go back to watch the drama with better quality subtitles in them bc they’re happy with what they got from the auto generated subs. I ALSO do know that most of these ‘’ give me the subs now whiners,’’ will go back and watch the drama again with better quality sub titles. I always read their comments. ‘‘I watch with no subs and now came back to watch with the subtitles.’’
Ah ah ah… I beg to disagree here. I often can’t even understand what they are saying.