I hope that viki staff have at least been through NSSA.
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@deval-chloe
As the “lead” on Level 4 for Ninja, my job is to trouble-shoot when a mentor doesn’t respond within several days of a student doing her assignment. The student writes to me. I too attempt to reach the mentor but if I don’t hear within 24 hours, I take over the mentor’s role. At some point, Ninja produced so many graduates who weren’t able to participate because there weren’t enough new videos uploaded each day, so I stopped volunteering to seg so the new graduates would have a chance and on projects for which I was CM I sometimes would allow only people who graduated in the prior two years to work on the project. Occasionally, I supervise advanced segmenters who want a specialization in Korean. I also manage one of the training channels.
For many years, there was no vikibot which notified the CM and segmenters that a new video had been uploaded and was ready for segmenting. Sometimes uploads happened when the CM and Chief Segmenter were asleep so individual segmenters checked periodically to see if the week’s episode was uploaded. If you loved segmenting, you stayed on the channel refreshing the episodes page every few minutes so you could grab a part to segment! Even now, If there were a new, raw project available to segment and there aren’t enough seggers, I would love to segment.
Of course I understand that segmenters should NOT be expected to promptly complete all episodes when an entire series is uploaded all at once, whether it’s a 16 or 129 episodes.
But what is the difficulty is adjusting in less than several hours after upload an already segmented and subbed hour long episode? I’ve had experienced seggers singlehandedly doing a two hour movie adjustment within a few hours after upload.
As I have explained numerous times in this forum and elsewhere, I have available to me sites for which I am a paying customer with Kdrama and C drama in English, but I think viki is providing a valuable service for many other languages so I continue to volunteer at viki. I don’t think it is right that subbing in other languages is waiting on the completion of adjustment of an already segged and subbed in English drama.
With respect to having to wait to adjust on pre-subbed K channels, more often than not the wait occurs because the channel has new Kocowa content. Kocowa now uploads raw video first. (Kocowa used to upload only after its English subbing was completed. ) Shortly after the Kocowa upload of the raw video, viki uploads the raw. About five hours after the initial raw upload, Kocowa uploads English subs. A few hours after Kocowa uploads its English subtitles, viki uploads their English subs. This chronology is based on my observations as a paid Kocowa subscriber.
So when there is an inordinate delay at viki, I check Kocowa. If Kocowa English subs are delayed, then viki subs will be delayed. In no case have I ever seen viki English subs uploaded before Kocowa English subs.
So a hint about having to wait to adjust K drama from Kocowa. Assume that after the raw video is uploaded, it’s going to be 3-5 hours before viki uploads the English subbed video, so don’t waste your time checking for at least 3 hours.
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Something that Viki needs to address is how seggers can be appropriately rewarded for doing A&C work. It is such a thankless task in many ways. Alternatively, if segs are automatically cut then the process should produce friendlier segments to work with, and ones that don’t require so much of the proverbial blood, sweat and tears.
I’ll explain…
These days, I’m fairly efficient at adjusting and combining, but it can be a slow process when I follow NSSA guidelines regarding seg time-length, actor’s on-screen presence, 120 characters (maximum) per seg, starting seg 0.1s before dialogue, etc., etc., etc.). This is especially true of many Chinese dramas.
The image below shows the raw segments for a show I’ve worked on as an A&C segger.
To work with segments that are prepared like like those above takes me up to 2 hours per 10-minute part. (My time-commitment depends on the amount of dialogue in the part.) At the end of those two hours of rather intense work, I will probably have gained credit for 9 segments and 15 subs (i.e. a total of 24 is added to my Viki tally of “work done”). By comparison, when I edit English subtitles, 2 hours of work will see me often gain credit for one or two hundred items. Editing is also significantly less intense than A&C.
For new NSSA graduates, the early stages of A&C can take up to 10 hours per part. It’s incredibly hard going when first starting out. I wonder how many people get discouraged when so much effort goes into something and the reward is so tiny?
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@manganese
A & C is indeed a thankless job with no payoff for the segmenter except the feeling that he/she is doing something to improve the quality of the viewer’s experience. Your picture tells it all. And for those who are non-segmenters there is one unseen negative about the segments in the picture. The last segment has no extension after the person stopped talking. Although “pros” say the subtitle should stop when the voice stops, we all know that most can’t read those sound bites rapidly so a little time (extension) after the voice stops should be given to the viewer to catch up!
For those of you reading this thread, can you imagine a two hour movie with 2000 segments and a large percentage of them not giving the viewer time to read? That’s where the segmenter’s adjustments to give the viewer time to read are invaluable.
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Is there already a team for The Heavenly Idol?
Hi Irmar, That is not a rule, It is something I allow. The world is round and has 24 time zones. Viki volunteers live all over the world, go to school or work. I do understand your frustration though. The real problem is that while there are plenty of language subbers, there are not enough segmenters to go around. We can not handle the demand. We are spread thin across several shows and we have to turn down so many excellent shows because we do not have the time to do them all. We can only do what our free time allows.
I do understand your frustration though. But I like to sleep between midnight and 8 am. I used to get up at 5 am to commute to my job but I retired, so I like to sleep in til 8 am if I can. Most of the pure segment shows drop between 3 and 5 AM my time, which is US Mountain time zone. I am not willing to get up that early to get a part and when I do try to get a part, I often fail because so many segmenters are there first. I rarely try to grab a part now because of that and deprive myself of sleep. so I mostly work on A&C projects.
Besides the fact that segmenters are in very short supply, even fewer segmenters will work on A&C shows because they are difficult to repair and can take up to 45 minutes per part compared to a mere 10 minutes when we create the segments ourselves. I try to accomodate the real liferequirements and time zones of my volunteer team members. I am grateful for the effort they are able to put into a job. But I do understand your frustration when we can’t crank out episodes within an hour of drop time.
We have a choice. Only work on ONE show and commit to getting up at 3-5 AM, leaving all the other shows without ANY segmenters. OR, split ourselves across several shows and try to crank out an episode at least once a week. 2 shows if we are lucky.
The problem is we do not have enough trained volunteer segmenters. But I do understand your frustration.
Choose. 
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So… I should quit since I am usually sleeping at drop times?
Maybe I should quit. It is volunteer work and we don’t even get contribution points for our work.
That would be a no. The segment cuts are usually horrible. - At least on Chinese shows. Korean shows are better. Japanese shows have the best segments.
You can see who is on a team under the shows Subtitle team link.
note: I had to combine my posts because this discussion censor complained that I replied too many times so I combined them and deleted the unneeded post below.
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@porkypine
Sorry, I should have modified to “come as soon as possible after the priorities of family, work and school.” I know from checking her time zone, one of the first viki-ans to amass 1 million segments often segs when it is 3 or 4 am for her. I, too, am a segmenter who amassed a huge number of segments rapidly because I was able and willing to segment when most viki volunteers were sleeping. I segged while most seggers were fast asleep.
When did the shortage of segmenters happen? Is this for all types of segmenting or for adjustment work only?
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Shows without presubs usually have very eager segmenters and find a CS fast, but those are rare. Right now, we have one ongoing show that came unsubbed, I think (Knight and Rose).
If people are willing to and can afford to do that, it’s great. While studying/working with a fixed schedule, I wouldn’t be able to do that.
I think Japanese shows are all presubbed/segmented by Viki (except for movies). Especially Chinese shows often get subtitles/segments from the distributor instead. This is more or less obvious if you check what paid subbers worked on.
There is not even a channel for this.
I consider myself slow, but for it to take me 10 hours, I require a bunch of 7-dish menus.
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They also NEED very much indeed to update the segment’s OUTDATED condition right now. I was going to start doing segments here, and I enrolled in the NSSA academy, but when I saw the same old segmenting system from when I started here in 2012 I DROPPED out immediately.
IT seems the CEO made marked improvements in the Japanese segmenting and translating of the dramas, so the same way they fixed that problem (which was horrible too), they can fix at least in the main OL. I understand is too costly to work out things for each and every OL. What is doable to find a MIDDLE GROUND where the segmenting can work for most OL, dramas and SHOWS.
When it comes to SPANISH dramas the segmenting system used now was not working well, and I try for a long time to request changes. In the end, they eliminated all SPANISH dramas from Viki and that’s how they resolved the issue. We had great Spanish dramas from so many Spanish speaking countries that would attract more paying subscribers, but WHATEVER…
In the case of the shows I worked in the After School one and I was disgusted with the whole situation there so I left because they don’t accept FEEDBACKS, and much less they try to correct what you know is wrong and should be fixed.
These SHOWS (especially Korean ones) need to have a new segmenting system that accommodates the conversation into sections that keeps up as the viewer is reading what the 3 or 4 MC’s are saying AT THE SAME TIME. Personally, they are rude to talk when someone else is talking, and they should be informed that they need to educate themselves that you don’t SPEAK over people. They have to wait until the other MC or invited guest finish their sentence before interjecting their not needed conversation.
The shows ALSO need a big group of segmenters, and a bigger group of translators available so the pace can be advanced so the viewers can finally watch updated episodes. In After School when I was there, they had the rudest Spanish moderators I had to deal with in my life (in fact I left bc of them). The 2 Spanish moderator would open the episode and start doing the Spanish subtitles, and when I went to also work in the episode she would go off at me. Mind you; I did it so she would know I knew what she was doing; not giving the Go’s, and her and the other so called ‘‘editor’’ making sure they did all the Spanish subs themselves. In other words, ‘‘hogging’’ the subs. PS. Although I reported them I was completely ignored and they even deleted (don’t know HOW) my complaint.
I can see by @manganese situation with the segments that not much has improved in these SHOWS; which in turn will discourage VIEWERS (paying or non paying) from watching them, and the hard work of segmenters is THANKLESS just because the viewers are not satisfied with the slowness the things are going in there. I AM NOT BLAMING @manganese bc I KNOW is NOT HIS/HER FAULT.
NO ONE has the right to make a comment like @xylune did
@xylune
I consider myself slow, but for it to take me 10 hours, I require a bunch of 7-dish menus.
@xylune UNLESS you worked in those shows you have no right to be so judgemental. BEFORE we criticize anything we must have been in those shoes to see what @manganese was feeling and dealing with. I don’t even know how @porkypine has stayed there since any feedbacks she used to give or questions (in ASC) were completely ignored, and I felt so bad for her/him since that was so rude on the part of the other team members.
I even experienced in ASC, a MODERATOR deleting the segments, copying and pasting all my subtitles, and putting all of them in HER/HIS name. That to me, was so outrageous, deceitful, and so uncalled for. We need to be honest, fair and team players at all time bc if not, what is the ulterior motive behind doing all these so UNFAIR stuff? I hope the CEO’s are paying attention NOW to these issues going on, and hopefully they can RESOLVE them in a timely fair manner.
@mirjam_465
You can compare yourself to the current new graduates
What you said to @xylune makes no sense since the new ‘‘graduates’’ are learning the same OUTDATED segmenting they used as far as I know since 2012. UNTIL they don’t UPGRADE in to the many new segmentings we have out there, we don’t have HOPE in hell, that these situations will improve. THE SEGMENTING needs a REVAMP asap and I Hope the Investors, CEO’s take a listen and a heart, and change this dreadful situation we have here with the so OUTDATED segmenting here at RAKUTENVIKI. They CAN do it, and we don’t need YEARS to see these changes. After all, it will only benefit this site, and make it catch up with the times.
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You see, personally I’m not that affected. As a viewer, my preferred language is English, and that is already provided, so I can watch the drama comfortably very soon. As an English editor, I don’t have to hear insults from sub-whiners, because the subs are already there. It saddens me that all these people won’t see the show nicely edited, but that’s nothing compared to what the OL go through.
“at your convenience” is too generic, and it can also mean “whenever you feel like it”. Now you say that it means “as soon as you are finished with sleep, food and work/school”. Which is very reasonable. And very different from “whenever you feel like it”.
Choose? If I had to choose, yes, I would choose for people to not be spread thin and concentrate on two or three dramas maximum (let’s say one episode per day of the week with one day off).
And same goes for English subbers, among which many commit, say “yes yes I’ll do it” and then never come, or do only 40-50 subs for 16 episodes. Oh, now they have become all but redundant, as very few shows come unsubbed, and they must be struggling to achieve their 500 contributions to keep their QC status. Maybe their nonchalant attitude is what made Viki choose to hire paid professionals (although they could have hired the best of volunteer subbers, since some of them are really very good!)
The subbers leave little by little, the segmenters will probably do the same, as doing Quality Control of course is no gain for them, so what will be left of the Viki volunteer community? Only editing and the OL? for how long? Is the boat sinking already and we just don’t know it, but keep partying at the captain’s table while the iceberg is slowly making a hole under our feet?
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replying to deleted messages makes even less sense…
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Lately, they’ve introduced presubs in Spanish and Portuguese as well. For example, in some movies or in case of “The end of the world with you”.
Let me quote you a few things:
“For new NSSA graduates, the early stages of A&C can take up to 10 hours per part.”
“I consider myself slow, but for it to take me 10 hours, I require a bunch of 7-dish menus.”
Neither was a specific show mentioned (partly we worked on the same shows, by the way), nor did I generalize my statement. I didn’t say, “No NSSA graduate can ever take 10 hours to complete A&C.”
Even though I guess that would be a rare case. Anyway, forum discussions are about precise wording.
I certainly do have a right to say what I want as long as I follow the forum rules and Viki guidelines. But I would probably advise you to consider a statement properly before commenting on it like that. Or let me put it a little more self-righteously: I don’t need to be told what to say in a forum after 20 years in these very forums. Otherwise, you are welcome to refute me appropriately.
Can anyone tell me why this mysterious CEO is the only person doing everything at Viki? Who are they even? 
Seems to be someone famous if he takes care of absolutely everything…
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Well, I should have added that @manganese was just looking for OUR understanding of his stress during his segmenting experience in this difficult show (I can’t believe they still struggling with those segments instead of starting from fresh and delete them all since they are so poorly done) Why keep them? anyway, I felt your comment was more a criticism as to the long 10 hours it takes him to fix them (sorry if I misunderstood you). But anyone that knows @manganese knows he’s a perfectionist, and gives his 100% in all the volunteer work he does at this site. So I don’t think the long hours he takes are for no other reason then that; giving his 100% quality work. If we had more dedicated volunteers like him, the drastic changes going here now would have never been necessary.
@xylune
Can anyone tell me why this mysterious CEO is the only person doing everything at Viki? Who are they even?
So… I’m guessing you refuse to give credit of the many great changes going on in here by the CEO’s/Investors, that they don’t want their hard earned money spend/invested at this site, going to waste? If it’s not them, who is it then?
The way things were going on here in the past, it was a clear road of doom/end of viki just like dramafever and others. We had here controlling groups running this place like they owned it. Worse yet, having ABUSERS bragging openly of all the things they were able to do here with no one stopping them. Having people added to teams subbing in a non native language providing LOW QUALITY subtitles (I saw that done mainly in Spanish and I have evidence too) I DON’T speak for OL that I don’t know. The icing on the cake? Copyrights infringement done by some OL subbers; risking to ruin the many years great reputation RVIKI had as having volunteers who provided great quality subtitles at this site.
I reported it a while back when I saw that happening in my language [SPANISH], and I hope they always keep their eyes opened regarding that situation.
Oh, by the way…I know bigger and better changes are in the works here, so we ALL shall look forward to it.
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@mirjam_465
replying to deleted messages makes even less sense…
I couldn’t help it since you did it to me once, too. But I guess you forgot. Not that I did it for that reason. I know I must feel like a total ****h, but I needed to get this out in the open since the segment system here compared to what I have experienced myself in ‘‘other places’’ is lacking way too much, and your comment helped me to get that in the open. Sorry about that. It won’t happened again. I know is hard to believe but I really like you. The vibes in your writing is of a person with a very good heart, and many times; misunderstood. Hope you can forgive me…
That looks like a mess to me I´m only at level 4, and that looks like a challenge that I would like to try in the future… but I dont think I would love if that was the only thing I hade to work with when Im done in the academy…
It’s not the only thing. But the alternative is having to A&C segments that only need adjustment of timing and extensions, which will give you no contributions.
You might find a show where you can segment from scratch now and then, but they are rare and if you can’t be there at exactly the time they air, you won’t even get a chance to work on them.
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What exactly did you experience in “other places,” regarding segmenting? And what are the Viki segmenters doing wrong in your eyes?
We are not allowed to delete them. The content providers make deals with Viki that their presubs might be adjusted but not deleted so there is nothing we can do about that.
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mirjam_465
We are not allowed to delete them.
That’s terrible.
mirjam_465
What exactly did you experience in “other places,” regarding segmenting?
I did (Spanish) subtitles in a video at another ‘‘place’’ and all I did was write the sub the moment the person ‘‘talked’’ and the segments were ‘‘done’’ by the ‘‘software?’’ (according to my understanding). I didn’t had to deal with waves and so much ‘‘listening’’ with accuracy to ‘‘make’’ a segment… My subtitles in Spanish came out really nice, and OL language added their subs in their reapective language. I have to admit they were short videos, not movies or dramas like we do here at RViki. I don’t know if this can apply to viki’s dramas/movies. I’m just assuming there has to be a more modernized way to make segments here at RViki (that’s why I call them outdated). Maybe someone that knows more can share their knowledge with us.
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Honestly, I don’t know much about other sites, and maybe that’s because I’m used to segment on Viki, still I tried different softwares and Viki segment timer is the one I find the easiest to use. But as I said, it’s probably because I’m used to it now.
Also have to say, with time I’m not looking at the waves much, only being very careful listening and watching the video (so I won’t miss texts nor dialogues, especially when sometimes there is some bug and the waves aren’t appearing).
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