When editing compromises accuracy of translation

[choitrio]

@ajumma2, I agree with you that sometimes being fluent in Korean can be a handicap as an English editor. This is one of the reasons why I never volunteer to work as a TE.

I have to say Korean is a very difficult language, even for a native. With so many homonyms, slangs, loan words, Sino-Korean vocabulary, it’s easy to make mistakes. The other day, I came across the word 서방님 while I was editing and sure enough it was translated as “husband”. Of course, 서방님 is a formal way to address husband, but in this particular case it referred to the married brother-in-law. Since most Korean language learners probably know 서방님 only as “husband”, I actually made a notation in the Team Discussions about the lesser known meaning.

@angelight313_168, I’ve made my share of mistakes and learned from them while subbing/editing here at Viki and I am grateful for that. While I agree that subbing etiquette can be better observed, I like to think that most volunteers here at Viki are working towards the same goal of providing the best possible subtitles for our viewers.

I still enjoy subbing (editing, not so much) but I am excited to learn how to segment.

[aziana01]

Most of these edits are harmless and may possibly be viewed as improvements to the original subtitles. However, I did notice that some of these edits have compromised the accuracy of translation.

This is very true and oftentimes it’s due to the nonexistence of certain terms and ideas in another language. For example, a lot of Asian languages have a hierarchy and the way you address each person utilizes different terminologies. In the English language, the term “you” or “me” identifies pretty much anyone. I can see how that could get lost in translation. As a TE, GE and CE, what would be more important? Getting the translation across to make sense to the reader of that language or being able to transpose the nuances of the original language? I guess that is up to the moderators to decide as they are the ones to help set the tone for the work of the team. What I want to see is correct spelling. That can be attainable if it’s being combed through by 3 separate editors.

[bozoli]

As a TE, GE and CE, what would be more important? Getting the translation across to make sense to the reader of that language or being able to transpose the nuances of the original language?

Do we have to choose? I had the impression that this thread speaks about English Editors who get lost in their passion of making the sentences flow more naturally in English, or shortening them, that they inadvertently change their meaning.

What I want to see is correct spelling.

Me, too! And the correct grammar. (And slang-less English, for practical purposes.) But I suspect choitrio wasn’t talking about that

[aziana01]

Do we have to choose? I had the impression that this thread speaks about English Editors who get lost in their passion of making the sentences flow more naturally in English, or shortening them, that they inadvertently change their meaning.

Sometimes I find that the translations are so true to the original language that it becomes lost in translation anyhow? It’s not to discredit what you are saying about inadvertently changing the true meaning. I wish languages were more simple and straight forward. It’s definitely easier to accurately translate some languages to others. Asian languages to English is not one of them! I applaud everyone for their hard work and I agree too many cooks can spoil the pot.

[angelight313_941]

@aziana01_426
It’s definitely easier to accurately translate some languages to others.
Asian languages to English is not one of them!

100% agree with that statement. Since we know how complex that can be, we need to find ways to make simpler Korean to English subtitles that convey what comes out of the actress/actor mouth, but ALWAYS in simpler words/sentences. We’ll only accomplish that when we eliminate these excess of editors that are doing more harm than good.

MOST importantly, the CHIEF EDITOR must/ should always be proficient in both Korean and English language, and can/will decide which subtitle is best for that specific scene. If any other translator Korean subbers/Editors disagree with the CE, they will have to discuss it between themselves until they reach an agreement what sentence/subs stays in the drama.

[zyxw]

This is the problem here, and it needs to stop; in the old viki no one was allowed to edit other volunteer’s work, and I can’t believe they dared to edit your work.

They need to bring back that system they had back then. When someone tried to edit other volunteers subs, it would not take the edit when you click save.

??? Isn’t the point of editing making the subtitles better? Typos, punctuation, sometimes grammar or just changing a sentence so that it sounds better.
Are you suggesting we get rid of the editing as a whole???
For sure, there are people who make some lines sound worse then before editing, but I’d rather have that than watch show before any work (I sometimes watch episodes right after release and find really funny stuff).
As a Polish subber I appreciate if someone corrects, what I wrote, because every person thinks differently and a sentence that is normal for me might look weird to someone else.
And as a moderator, if the only mistake subber makes is lack of punctuation, then I just quickly correct that and everything is great. If I didn’t have the chance to do edits, I would either have to leave the subtitles looking kinda bad or send the whole list with descriptions, which would take some time from my life.
I think editing is neccesary, we can talk about how to do it and improve the process, but getting rid of it is not a good idea.

[angelight313_941]

@zyxw

In the old viki ( Year 2013) assigned Editors ONLY were allowed to edit the translations from Korean to English in the dramas. Now, I believe and it seems to me, that everyone has access to editing subtitles here as they wish. I’m basing this on the fact that a great editor like @choitrio had her subtitle edited and changed by another volunteer. To make matters worse, the changes done were not done with a better translation, and I BET that is the subtitle we see now in the drama.

I wasn’t talking about POLISH or any other language, but Korean to English. If we have a TE/GE/ and a CE; that’s more than enough editors to correct the translations that the subbers from Korean to English added in the segments. The subtitles/translations NEED to be edited, there is no question about that, but only by assigned editors, and hopefully they are proficient enough in Korean and English, so the subtitle can get the most accurate translation.

That is why I said that the CE the big boss of EDITING should be proficient enough in Korean and English, and in my opinion, should decide if the subtitle needs to be changed by him/her or it stays as is, for the viewers to enjoy.

You definitely misunderstood what I was writing about. They had a system in the good OLD VIKI, that if another subber tried to edit another subber’s translation; the SAVE button would not accept the EDIT from the other subber. ONLY EDITORS were able to edit the subtitles. Editors were back then, proficient enough in both Korean and English, but now I doubt that is the case.

EVERY language needs to have editors assigned in the dramas/movies/shows etc. to ensure an accurate translation, and also proper grammar in them, but I don’t know how each language is handling that here because I’m mainly concerned with GREAT English translations since is my preferred language, although I know Spanish perfectly well.

zyxw I think editing is neccesary, we can talk about how to do it and improve the process, but getting rid of it is not a good idea.

This is what I wrote: ‘‘when we eliminate these EXCESS of editors that are doing more harm than good.’’ I didn’t wrote eliminate ALL Editors from the drama, I very clearly said Eliminate the EXCESS (so many editors) that we have in the drama now because too many editors in the drama does not benefit the translation.

Like @choitrio wrote before and I feel the same way; a wise quote on that.

[zyxw]

But I think only editors do in fact edit subs and if someone else does that you can report them for abuse, right?
The another volunteer was probably editor. You’re saying that that was some random translator without any proof.

You also said something like

I have to point out that the subtitles I complaint before that they wanted to edit from me (and I forbade them to do it) were subs from ENGLISH to SPANISH.

So I thought that since you add translation to another language, I can also talk about that.

[choitrio]

I think I need to make myself clear and reiterate that I have a huge respect for editors and I appreciate their work. Also, I created this thread based on my observation working as a subber or TE on various projects, not based on any particular incidents. I noticed an issue that I thought would be beneficial if brought to surface, acknowledged, and possibly addressed, simple as that.

I will quickly talk about some of the things I have personally encountered.

• SUBBERS EDITING FELLOW SUBBERS’ WORK: Before you jump to the conclusion that all of them are abusers, I would like you to think back to when you were a newbie. Did you all know that before you start subbing a part, you need to look at the bottom left corner of the Subtitle Editor to make sure that no one else is working on it? Being the low tech person I am, I didn’t even know about the existence of Team Discussions or Team Notes for almost a month, and I just recently learned how to use Google sheet. It would be really helpful if some of these things can be explained to new recruits. On the other hand, there are some subbers who erroneously think that they can be noticed and recognized by CMs or CEs by appearing to be more knowledgeable than others. I assure you that if you are a competent subber, you will get noticed, whether you want to or not. Our Viki CMs and CEs are pretty good stalkers.

• LESS NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTIONS BY EDITORS IS NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING: I once had the pleasure of working with a TE who noted in the Team Discussions something to the effect “You guys did a great job so I barely had anything to do.” I like to think that the workload of editors is inversely proportional to the strength of the subbing team. If the team is largely made up of strong subbers, the editors’ work should be minimal.

• EDITING SIMPLY BASED ON PERSONAL PREFERENCE: In my mind, there is absolutely no need to change “Mom!” to “MOM!”

• EDITING SUBTITLES CREATED BY A REPUTABLE SUBBER BASED ON YOUR OWN LEARNED KNOWLEDGE, WITHOUT CONSULTING THE SUBBER OR TRANSLATION EDITOR: I think both myself and @ajumma2 mentioned this in earlier posts. Sometimes, limited knowledge can be more harmful than helpful, especially with a language like Korean.

[angelight313_941]

choitrio
SUBBERS EDITING FELLOW SUBBERS’ WORK

I’m hoping the technical department can work it out so the subbers in the team can’t edit another subber’s work/subtitles. I was never an ‘‘abuser’’ just a newbie that tried to edit another subber’s work, and when I pressed the “SAVE” button, my edit didn’t go through, and I read a message that said: Only Editors can edit subtitles. I learned from that not to try to make edits anymore, and instead informed the moderator to fix what I felt was a wrong translation. This happened back in 2013. I honestly can’t understand why subbers now can touch/edit the work of another subber when in the past that wasn’t possible.

EDITING SIMPLY BASED ON PERSONAL PREFERENCE

I agree on this one with you, and I hope it stops because some of these ‘‘preference’’ are incorrectly done. Like when a moderator instructed a subber to add the period inside the bracket [the sky is blue.] when [the period always go outside the bracket]. I see it all over now in the subtitles, and it annoys me so much.

choitrio
@ajumma2, I agree with you that sometimes being fluent in Korean can be a handicap as an English editor. This is one of the reasons why I never volunteer to work as a TE.

I personally think that you can be a great TE because you will be able to balance the knowledge you have in both language, and you will do a great job when editing the subtitles.

When you have the time, and if you want to (I understand if you don’t want to do so; so don’t worry)

But I am so dying of curiosity to know; why you think being fluent in Korean can be a handicap as an English Editor.

You see, in my mind if I was fluent enough in Korean, I always thought I could be a great English Editor. But to me, just being proficient enough in the English language is not enough to edit a sentence/subtitle (since I never know if the translation in Korean was done correctly).

I would appreciate if you could give us some example because I love learning things from (you) ppl. I feel are very knowledgeable on the subject.

Thanks in advance,

Wanda.

[vivi_1485]

absolutely no need to change “Mom!” to “MOM!”

This is a formatting rule, not an English rule. Some teams prefer to keep subs formal and in lowercase while others prefer to show that a person is shouting using uppercase letters. I think they do that for the benefit of deaf viewers… (is he just surprised or is he yelling his head off? that kind of thing) My trainer said we shouldn’t use it so I have never done it myself, but some CMs might want it.

But if the CM goes with the uppercase, it should be uniform and used throughout the entire length of the drama

[bozoli]

while others prefer to show that a person is shouting using uppercase letters.

All caps should never be used in translation, unless they are abbreviations.

And actually, the exclamation mark is too often used on Viki. It should only be used if someone raises their voice. I’ve seen some translations where most of the sentences end in exclamation marks and it’s not an action scene, nobody’s arguing or calling anyone. They were all just talking. Perhaps the subbers/editors were excited

[vivi_1485]

caps should never be used in translation, unless they are abbreviations.

I also thought that was the rule, but I saw all caps subs in a few dramas… so I thought it’s a CM-preference thing

[damiechan]

so I thought it’s a CM-preference thing

No, some editors just don’t know the rules

[angelight313_941]

I found this today, and was shocked because it has answered some of my questions. I want to share this here from @irmar that she posted back in 2019.

1)… a major skill to develop is to understand Korean sentence structure. Why? Because then you will be able to understand some sentences that apparently make no sense. You will know it’s literal translation, you will go back to the Korean style of saying things (no, you don’t need to actually learn the language!) and understand the meaning, so that you know how to change it. Become used to finding sentences with the verb at the very end and develop strategies to deal with them.
Inverting them is the simplest solution but it doesn’t work all the time, because sometimes you have to match the surprise factor and the actors’ reactions.

2. Matching the style to the speaker and situation. Learning to recognize formality levels (again, you don’t need to learn Korean for that - and I’m only mentioning Korean because that’s what I have experience in)

Then of course it’s the customs, food items, place names, cultural references, ways of speech which some people translate literally and some not

SO INTERESTING TO KNOW THIS!
… If you don’t know about them, no matter how excellent your knowledge of English, you’re bound to make blunders.

3. the formatting. And how to shorten a sub if needed without losing crucial information.

I finally get it now.

Good bye for today back to packing which I hate so much!

[midknightmoodz]

Not sure if this is a good example but I came across a dilemma today.

The phrase that can be deceiving, “I want to hit on you” or any context that contains, “hitting on” someone. It sounds normal in English because it’s sort of slang. My concern is, how does it translate in OL. Like, would there be a confusion with the physical “hitting on” someone or does it mean the same thing as the English phrase.

I try to change it to, “I want to court you” or “I’m courting him/her” since the meaning is more direct, less confusing.

Am I thinking too much? I try to keep OL in mind when I do TE.

[aziana01]

I try to change it to, “I want to court you” or “I’m courting him/her” since the meaning is more direct, less confusing.

I suppose what choice words you decide depends on the time period of the drama. “Courting” someone is an older terminology that could still exist in certain circumstances, but guessing from the phrase “hit on you,” I’m thinking it’s more modern. Perhaps the word date/dating might be more appropriate in this situation.

My concern is, how does it translate in OL.

This is where the person doing the subbing for OL needs to have enough knowledge of English in order to translate it to the OL and have it make sense. You are so considerate as a TE and I see that you not only care about your project but those who will use them later as well.

[midknightmoodz]

When translating from one language to the next there’s always a chance the context gets lost. As a viewer myself, when I watch dramas that have excellent translations it makes a good experience in watching. So, applying this perception when I sub/TE, I try to choose my phrases carefully for OL so that they can translate without losing the original meaning. This ensures all viewers have a pleasant time watching. I would hate for viewers of OL to only get a piece of translation and be left out from the whole context.

[someofliz]

As @aziana01_426 said, it always depends on the proficiency the subbers has in English.

“I want to hit on you”

Her someone might get hit, if translated wrongly and here

“I want to court you”

someone might end up before court in a trial.
Mistakes can happen everywhere. When I’m not sure if a phrase might be a proverb or something, I ask others and try to look it up online, but not everyone goes to that extent, and they just translate what thy think it might mean.

Also, with words that have a different meaning in British English and American English, it can happen that the subber chooses the wrong translation. I’ve seen that kind of mistake recently, now there is a reminder included in my notes for the team, that on Viki we use manly American English.

[manganese]

“I want to hit on you”

I’m a native English speaker and I don’t like this phrase all that much. In all honesty, I have never ever heard anyone say it to someone nor have I heard anyone say it when talking about someone they like. To my ears, it has a colloquial and unsophisticated ring to it. I first encountered this phrase in subtitles.

When I’m dealing with things like this, I clearly establish the concept that’s trying to be conveyed. In this case, the ideas I hear behind the phrase are something like those below…

• I’d like you to get to know me better and maybe romance will grow.
• I want to make advances toward you with the idea of romance growing.

Now they’re way too wordy for most subs. So, once I have the notion clearly in mind, I try shortening it. I do this in Word because being able to see the phrases and their changes as I play with them, helps me.

So some ideas that are springing to mind as I type are…

• I’d like the chance to get to know you better.
• I’d like to get to know you better. May I?
• May I pursue you and get to know you better?
• I’m going to do what I can so you’ll see me as boyfriend material.
• Can you give me a chance to show you I’m boyfriend material?
• I want to show you that I’m boyfriend material.
• Let me show you I’m boyfriend material.
• May I romantically pursue you?
• I’d like us to become more than friends.
• I’ll show you that I can be more than you think I am.
• I want to show you my romantic side.
• I want to get to know you more.
• May I be romantic sometimes?
  …etc.

Whether or not any of the above are appropriate will totally depend on the context. It might even turn out that “I want to hit on you” is the best choice for the context.