When editing compromises accuracy of translation

General Discussion
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Dear Noel, you are one of the most diligent GEs I know. To be honest, there are both pros and cons to knowing the origin language when you are an English editor. If you have some knowledge of the origin language, it might help you to understand why some of the subtitles are oddly structured to retain the true meaning. However, unless you are actually fluent in the origin language, the academic knowledge can sometimes mislead you, especially with language like Korean that has endless homonyms and slangs.

I just finished segging the second part of Level 1 video. It was a lot harder than the first. Hopefully, I did okay.:crossed_fingers:

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Fighting!!!:tada::tada:

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Yes, I’ve seen this many times when a well meaning English editor who had some level of Korean knowledge making these kind of mistakes.

Also, being fluent in Korean can actually be a handicap as an English editor. For example, some of the translated sentences sounded just fine to me and they totally made sense in my head since I heard it in Korean at the same time and understood the meaning. But when another editor asked clarification, I re-read the English sentence itself, without thinking about how it’s said in Korean, then it sounded confusing.

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On one channel way back there was a first-time CE who left such sentences. When asked by several OL mods what they meant (which in itself indicates the sentences were not clear enough), the CE could not understand which part was inaccurate/confusing/didn’t make sense. We thought it was obvious and that we were mocked for not knowing English well enough. Even I got confused. Do I know English? :grin:

But in retrospect, I do now think that the CE just… didn’t get it. Luckily, another English editing member understood and corrected them.

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I gave you a heart :heart: for this post, because of the above statement. I support the volunteers here, who make it possible for fans, like myself, to watch shows from many other countries.

I have seen your thread that expanded on your views above.


Do you still hold to these views?
Many credible volunteers/fans have replied, to say your held view is not correct, including the unnamed volunteer.
There are prizes, and gifts available to volunteers. I have never read, anywhere, volunteers are paid a wage.

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This is the problem here, and it needs to stop; in the old viki no one was allowed to edit other volunteer’s work, and I can’t believe they dared to edit your work. I would never correct or edit any translation in English that you did bc I know they are #1 close to perfection. If anything, I would be so confident that my Spanish translations would be very close to what you tried to convey in your translation from Korean to English.

They need to bring back that system they had back then. When someone tried to edit other volunteers subs, it would not take the edit when you click save. I know it bc I tried to do edit other volunteer’s work, and it would not save my edit. I know something can be done about that.

choitrio
I try to provide T/N for the viewers as well but I also recognize that by doing so the subtitles may become too long or not as esthetically pleasing.

I like your T/N and to me they are not that long, but the problem with that is that the time in the segment has to be longer/adjusted so we/viewers have enough time to read them, and not have to pause the drama so we can finish reading. Lately, and sadly, I have become a very slow reader. But now that you decided to do segmenting, you will see how you can work it out so that the viewers have enough time to read your T/N without having to press the pause button.

As long as they are not way too long, and you can make them as short as possible without losing important information in them, it’s all good. That’s one thing I hated in the past with Chinese dramas that the T/N were so long it annoyed me so much to see all this words covering half of the screen [lol]. I would actually stop watching the drama because of that reason.

choitrio
I think I will focus on learning to segment for a while and not get too involved with subbing/editing.

It saddens me to know that you rather do segmenting than subbing and/or editing. What a great loss for (us) the viewers. I just hope the K/E teams put an extra effort in their translations, so we have less subtitles that makes none to little sense at times.

PS. I have to point out that the subtitles I complaint before that they wanted to edit from me (and I forbade them to do it) were subs from ENGLISH to SPANISH.

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@hyyuns
They make more than 400 subtitles every 8 minutes. Only copy and paste which is forbidden.

A while ago someone told me through a PM that some ppl here got paid a penny per segment done, and if that’s the case to make a few dollars they would have to resort to copying and pasting whatever is in front of them to make some ‘’ short change/ money’’

The saddest part is that there’s no one to report this things to bc no one is taking care of that in here. In the past, you would report a person doing that, and the staff in charge would ‘‘investigate,’’ and if it was found they were doing illegal subbing techniques their account would be close, suspended etc…

The way they can add all this subs in short amount of time is by going to the BULK TRANSLATION and click after click the suggested sub without caring if they were correctly done or not. I BELIEVE you bc it’s possible that it can be done bc I saw it done by some SPANISH subbers, too.

They just click away without checking if subtitle is good or not. They want NUMBER COUNT which translate to QUANTITY, and they don’t care about QUALITY. I can’t say is true that they pay a penny per seg, but copying and pasting with the click of the button of the suggested sub for huge contribution count; is very possible.

Have you tried reporting this person? Click on the Flag of the person’s profile doing this, and follow the instruction, and then press the SUBMIT button when you are done (it might work for you). GOOD LUCK!

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@ajumma2, I agree with you that sometimes being fluent in Korean can be a handicap as an English editor. This is one of the reasons why I never volunteer to work as a TE.

I have to say Korean is a very difficult language, even for a native. With so many homonyms, slangs, loan words, Sino-Korean vocabulary, it’s easy to make mistakes. The other day, I came across the word 서방님 while I was editing and sure enough it was translated as “husband”. Of course, 서방님 is a formal way to address husband, but in this particular case it referred to the married brother-in-law. Since most Korean language learners probably know 서방님 only as “husband”, I actually made a notation in the Team Discussions about the lesser known meaning.

@angelight313_168, I’ve made my share of mistakes and learned from them while subbing/editing here at Viki and I am grateful for that. While I agree that subbing etiquette can be better observed, I like to think that most volunteers here at Viki are working towards the same goal of providing the best possible subtitles for our viewers.

I still enjoy subbing (editing, not so much) but I am excited to learn how to segment.:blush:

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This is very true and oftentimes it’s due to the nonexistence of certain terms and ideas in another language. For example, a lot of Asian languages have a hierarchy and the way you address each person utilizes different terminologies. In the English language, the term “you” or “me” identifies pretty much anyone. I can see how that could get lost in translation. As a TE, GE and CE, what would be more important? Getting the translation across to make sense to the reader of that language or being able to transpose the nuances of the original language? I guess that is up to the moderators to decide as they are the ones to help set the tone for the work of the team. What I want to see is correct spelling. That can be attainable if it’s being combed through by 3 separate editors.

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Do we have to choose? I had the impression that this thread speaks about English Editors who get lost in their passion of making the sentences flow more naturally in English, or shortening them, that they inadvertently change their meaning.

Me, too! :grin: And the correct grammar. (And slang-less English, for practical purposes.) But I suspect choitrio wasn’t talking about that :blush:

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Sometimes I find that the translations are so true to the original language that it becomes lost in translation anyhow? :slight_smile: It’s not to discredit what you are saying about inadvertently changing the true meaning. I wish languages were more simple and straight forward. It’s definitely easier to accurately translate some languages to others. Asian languages to English is not one of them! :grin: I applaud everyone for their hard work and I agree too many cooks can spoil the pot.

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@aziana01_426
It’s definitely easier to accurately translate some languages to others.
Asian languages to English is not one of them!

100% agree with that statement. Since we know how complex that can be, we need to find ways to make simpler Korean to English subtitles that convey what comes out of the actress/actor mouth, but ALWAYS in simpler words/sentences. We’ll only accomplish that when we eliminate these excess of editors that are doing more harm than good.

MOST importantly, the CHIEF EDITOR must/ should always be proficient in both Korean and English language, and can/will decide which subtitle is best for that specific scene. If any other translator Korean subbers/Editors disagree with the CE, they will have to discuss it between themselves until they reach an agreement what sentence/subs stays in the drama.

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??? Isn’t the point of editing making the subtitles better? Typos, punctuation, sometimes grammar or just changing a sentence so that it sounds better.
Are you suggesting we get rid of the editing as a whole???
For sure, there are people who make some lines sound worse then before editing, but I’d rather have that than watch show before any work (I sometimes watch episodes right after release and find really funny stuff).
As a Polish subber I appreciate if someone corrects, what I wrote, because every person thinks differently and a sentence that is normal for me might look weird to someone else.
And as a moderator, if the only mistake subber makes is lack of punctuation, then I just quickly correct that and everything is great. If I didn’t have the chance to do edits, I would either have to leave the subtitles looking kinda bad or send the whole list with descriptions, which would take some time from my life.
I think editing is neccesary, we can talk about how to do it and improve the process, but getting rid of it is not a good idea.

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@zyxw

In the old viki ( Year 2013) assigned Editors ONLY were allowed to edit the translations from Korean to English in the dramas. Now, I believe and it seems to me, that everyone has access to editing subtitles here as they wish. I’m basing this on the fact that a great editor like @choitrio had her subtitle edited and changed by another volunteer. To make matters worse, the changes done were not done with a better translation, and I BET that is the subtitle we see now in the drama.

I wasn’t talking about POLISH or any other language, but Korean to English. If we have a TE/GE/ and a CE; that’s more than enough editors to correct the translations that the subbers from Korean to English added in the segments. The subtitles/translations NEED to be edited, there is no question about that, but only by assigned editors, and hopefully they are proficient enough in Korean and English, so the subtitle can get the most accurate translation.

That is why I said that the CE the big boss of EDITING should be proficient enough in Korean and English, and in my opinion, should decide if the subtitle needs to be changed by him/her or it stays as is, for the viewers to enjoy.

You definitely misunderstood what I was writing about. They had a system in the good OLD VIKI, that if another subber tried to edit another subber’s translation; the SAVE button would not accept the EDIT from the other subber. ONLY EDITORS were able to edit the subtitles. Editors were back then, proficient enough in both Korean and English, but now I doubt that is the case.

EVERY language needs to have editors assigned in the dramas/movies/shows etc. to ensure an accurate translation, and also proper grammar in them, but I don’t know how each language is handling that here because I’m mainly concerned with GREAT English translations since is my preferred language, although I know Spanish perfectly well.

zyxw I think editing is neccesary, we can talk about how to do it and improve the process, but getting rid of it is not a good idea.

This is what I wrote: ‘‘when we eliminate these EXCESS of editors that are doing more harm than good.’’ I didn’t wrote eliminate ALL Editors from the drama, I very clearly said Eliminate the EXCESS (so many editors) that we have in the drama now because too many editors in the drama does not benefit the translation.

Like @choitrio wrote before and I feel the same way; a wise quote on that.

image

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But I think only editors do in fact edit subs and if someone else does that you can report them for abuse, right?
The another volunteer was probably editor. You’re saying that that was some random translator without any proof.

You also said something like

So I thought that since you add translation to another language, I can also talk about that.

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I think I need to make myself clear and reiterate that I have a huge respect for editors and I appreciate their work. Also, I created this thread based on my observation working as a subber or TE on various projects, not based on any particular incidents. I noticed an issue that I thought would be beneficial if brought to surface, acknowledged, and possibly addressed, simple as that.

I will quickly talk about some of the things I have personally encountered.

  • SUBBERS EDITING FELLOW SUBBERS’ WORK: Before you jump to the conclusion that all of them are abusers, I would like you to think back to when you were a newbie. Did you all know that before you start subbing a part, you need to look at the bottom left corner of the Subtitle Editor to make sure that no one else is working on it? Being the low tech person I am, I didn’t even know about the existence of Team Discussions or Team Notes for almost a month, and I just recently learned how to use Google sheet. It would be really helpful if some of these things can be explained to new recruits. On the other hand, there are some subbers who erroneously think that they can be noticed and recognized by CMs or CEs by appearing to be more knowledgeable than others. I assure you that if you are a competent subber, you will get noticed, whether you want to or not. Our Viki CMs and CEs are pretty good stalkers.:wink:

  • LESS NUMBER OF CONTRIBUTIONS BY EDITORS IS NOT NECESSARILY A BAD THING: I once had the pleasure of working with a TE who noted in the Team Discussions something to the effect “You guys did a great job so I barely had anything to do.” I like to think that the workload of editors is inversely proportional to the strength of the subbing team. If the team is largely made up of strong subbers, the editors’ work should be minimal.

  • EDITING SIMPLY BASED ON PERSONAL PREFERENCE: In my mind, there is absolutely no need to change “Mom!” to “MOM!”

  • EDITING SUBTITLES CREATED BY A REPUTABLE SUBBER BASED ON YOUR OWN LEARNED KNOWLEDGE, WITHOUT CONSULTING THE SUBBER OR TRANSLATION EDITOR: I think both myself and @ajumma2 mentioned this in earlier posts. Sometimes, limited knowledge can be more harmful than helpful, especially with a language like Korean.

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choitrio
SUBBERS EDITING FELLOW SUBBERS’ WORK

I’m hoping the technical department can work it out so the subbers in the team can’t edit another subber’s work/subtitles. I was never an ‘‘abuser’’ just a newbie that tried to edit another subber’s work, and when I pressed the “SAVE” button, my edit didn’t go through, and I read a message that said: Only Editors can edit subtitles. I learned from that not to try to make edits anymore, and instead informed the moderator to fix what I felt was a wrong translation. This happened back in 2013. I honestly can’t understand why subbers now can touch/edit the work of another subber when in the past that wasn’t possible.

EDITING SIMPLY BASED ON PERSONAL PREFERENCE

I agree on this one with you, and I hope it stops because some of these ‘‘preference’’ are incorrectly done. Like when a moderator instructed a subber to add the period inside the bracket [the sky is blue.] when [the period always go outside the bracket]. I see it all over now in the subtitles, and it annoys me so much.

choitrio
@ajumma2, I agree with you that sometimes being fluent in Korean can be a handicap as an English editor. This is one of the reasons why I never volunteer to work as a TE.

I personally think that you can be a great TE because you will be able to balance the knowledge you have in both language, and you will do a great job when editing the subtitles.

When you have the time, and if you want to (I understand if you don’t want to do so; so don’t worry)

But I am so dying of curiosity to know; why you think being fluent in Korean can be a handicap as an English Editor.

You see, in my mind if I was fluent enough in Korean, I always thought I could be a great English Editor. But to me, just being proficient enough in the English language is not enough to edit a sentence/subtitle (since I never know if the translation in Korean was done correctly).

I would appreciate if you could give us some example because I love learning things from (you) ppl. I feel are very knowledgeable on the subject.

Thanks in advance,

Wanda.

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This is a formatting rule, not an English rule. Some teams prefer to keep subs formal and in lowercase while others prefer to show that a person is shouting using uppercase letters. I think they do that for the benefit of deaf viewers… (is he just surprised or is he yelling his head off? that kind of thing) My trainer said we shouldn’t use it so I have never done it myself, but some CMs might want it.

But if the CM goes with the uppercase, it should be uniform and used throughout the entire length of the drama

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All caps should never be used in translation, unless they are abbreviations.

And actually, the exclamation mark is too often used on Viki. It should only be used if someone raises their voice. I’ve seen some translations where most of the sentences end in exclamation marks and it’s not an action scene, nobody’s arguing or calling anyone. They were all just talking. Perhaps the subbers/editors were excited :smirk:

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I also thought that was the rule, but I saw all caps subs in a few dramas… so I thought it’s a CM-preference thing :sweat_smile: