Trust me, it really is interesting to work on segments and understanding how a segment works. As a segger you work on every segment even if you might not get points for them. I love segmenting in any form, I might not work on A&P and A only but there are so much more that you can do. For me knowing that I have made segments or in some cases saveed someone from gaps and micro gaps is pure joy.
I can maybe train my timing, but Segmenting from scratch, like we learned in the 5 levels, is much more interesting for me than just A&C
You segging nerds!
I understand your complaints. The pre-subbed shows do not give us appropriate credit for the amount of time it takes to repair poorly segmented shows. That is the truth. But given that it is the hand we are dealt, we either quit or work around it.
However, the CS’s do not delete all the segments or subs. We DO make combinations to put broken sentences together, all the time. Every combo does reduce the segment count per episode, but in A&C jobs we are not creating segments we are reducing them as a byproduct of combining the broken sentences. Segmenters on A&C shows DO get one sub credit for every pasted sub you put together. We ARE doing the job of a segmenter when we adjust the timing, we just are not creating new segments. At least we get a sub credit, so DO YOUR COMBOS if you need contribution points for your pass.
We (CS) DO delete unimportant segments when we find them - excess team credits, segments created for oddball signs, vocal noises that are not dialog, Lyrics that are interwoven with dialog (if the lyric pieces are too short or incomplete), We delete segments for incomprehensible background chatter that can not be understood by the translation editors, etc.
I realize that many people may only have a couple of hours a week to devote to Viki and that may be where the problem lies with being unable to obtain the QC status pass. When we do minimal work that is bordering on the edge of that qualification line we can expect some points to disappear given the reasons stated above.
So, given the current lack of contribution points for the amount of work we do, we have these choices.
1: Do more work
2: Pay for the pass.
3: Don’t volunteer.
Simple as that.
We can hope that maybe one day Viki will hear us and fix the system before they lose all of us segmenters,
The simple solution would be that once we have renewed our QC status, it stays that way, just like it does for other volunteers, even if their work gets corrected. It is that part that is unnecessarily unfair.
Just sign up. You can always decide not to become a segmenter after graduation. If you don’t sign up, you will always wonder what could have been.
No, I am not talking about abusers per se. I’m talking about normal segmenters who get tempted to over-split because they want to get more contribution count. The cases where one could say “hm, I don’t know why the person did it, it MAY also be because s/he thought it woud look better, but it really doesn’t.” So the CS joins those again. There can be doubt, it’s not super-obvious abuse, as those who split a segment into 4-5 mini pieces (it’s been a long time I haven’t come across those).
And I can assure you that this type of mini-abuse, not-so-surely-abuse, is VEEEERY frequent.
As I said in my previous post, I can totally understand the frustration that might lead one to behave like this, I’m not really blaming them. But still it’s not best practice, so they deserve their segments to be deleted and their contribution count to be lowered, because those contributions shoudn’t have been there in the first place.
And do the honest segmenters who are victims of that same punishment deserve it, too? Then why don’t subbers or editors get punished for similar practices? And how can you even tell someone’s true intentions in such cases? And why should the QC status of subbers be set in stone while that of the seggers isn’t? Imagine renewing your status today and then tomorrow find out that you have to make X contributions to renew it once again…
The popular shows would go to the paid staff…
Asking because I’ve never thought about it and I sincerely don’t know:
In case of a join between two small segments into a big one, the usual way is to copy the text of the second segment at the end of the first and then delete the second segment and extend the first to take the place of both.
So, if a segment gets deleted (not overwritten, but completely deleted) by the segmenter/chief segmenter/editor, are you saying that the subtitler’s contribution to the second segment, which disappears from the face of earth, doesn’t get deleted from his contribution count? I would definitely think it does. And if there are more than one subtitler who each wrote his/her version, it gets substracted from the contribution count of all of them.
But I haven’t really checked it - it just makes sense.
*On the other hand, whole dramas I’ve worked on have completely disappeared from Viki, and my subtitle count for them seems to be there, at least in the project contribution page. I don’t know whether the disappearance of the channel affected my total, I don’t keep count. *
Why is that important? If a segment must go, it must go, whatever the true intentions. It’s not a punishment anyway, I don’t know why you call it that. You made a segment that you shoudn’t have made, so it gets deleted. That contribution shouldn’t have been there to begin with. How is this a “punishment”? It’s correction of a mistake.
If the segment gets deleted, then the subtitle, too, disappears off the face of the earth and whoever wrote it will lose that contribution. This person is usually a segmenter. If the show comes unsubbed and English has to start before QC, then it could also happen to an English subber. But to OL, it usually only happens if they start translating before the episode is released to them or in the rare cases that a segment for some reason gets deleted after release to OL.
A few months ago I had the same issues. This situation is really frustrating. Viki is slowly getting rid of us and it seems like we can’t do a thing about it. Watching dramas segmented and subbed by volunteers is something I’ve never found elsewhere, and it was so great to think fans, like me, were united to create and share those dramas to the world.
I started with segmenting after graduating the ninja academy, I was really proud of myself and enjoying doing segments even tho it took me many hours. But one day we had to do A&C, again A&C, and only A&C. We couldn’t create segments anymore, but we had to work a lot to improve the segments. I almost lost my QC status, I complained about the system and felt like I was just here for the free pass, but it’s not only that. The QC status and the benefits we get from it, is my pride as a volunteer, a proof that I worked hard for Viki and for the passionate people watching dramas. Losing my status means my contributions were useless and it would be as if they never existed.
Now, I’m also doing subs because I wanted to do it for a long time. The fear of losing my status motivated me to start translating, which shouldn’t be the case. Today I do more subtitles than segments. However, I would like to create segments again, I liked that, I liked working with my team, I liked that we were all together and that we consulted each other. I liked seeing my creations being used by the subtitlers and I liked seeing people watching the dramas with our subtitles and segments. I miss all that. A&C is a segmenter job but we don’t get credit for it, that’s where Viki is disappointing. They want to get rid of us all, segmenters then subtitlers. Don’t let them forget where they came from. We gave them strength. Viki used to be a meeting point, now it’s a platform as cold and distant as ■■■■■■■…
In the case of unsubbed shows (the old Viki way) I have never come across an instance when subbing comes before segmenters. However, even with the normal order, first segmenting and then English subbing, it happens (not very rarely) that, seeing the sentence subbed, the Chief Editor decides upon some delete/join. Often the reason being the structure (word order) of Korean sentences - too long to explain right now but whoever knows even the basics of Korean knows what I mean. So, not because the segmenters’ judgement wasn’t good enough, but because they didn’t have the info of knowing what was being said. (Many chief Editors and editors are NSSA graduates - including me - so, when one sees something to be done, why bother to tell the CS who has already completed her/his job, they just do it on the fly so that they can finish editing without delays and releas to the OL sooner)
But yes, for OL to lose a contribution, that IS very rare.
You were the one saying they “deserved it.” I don’t see correcting segments as a punishment. Having your newly renewed QC status reversed as a result, though, is a different matter. That should only happen to true abusers, not to people who may have done the “wrong” thing with good intentions.
Nowadays, unsubbed shows equal impatient viewers so Viki can’t afford to wait for the CS to check the segments. This of course depends on the popularity of the show.
It happens, but usually, it’s just a few segments.
I know exactly what you mean.
The CS has essentially done his/her job, but he/she is still around in case adjustments are wanted. Unless specifically agreed upon, no one but the CS should make those adjustments. The CS is the one responsible for the segments and the one frowned upon in case something is wrong with the segments. And it’s not only NSSA graduates who take the liberty to change the segments.
Whenever I am CE, I ask the CS beforehand if they are okay with me adjusting segments during editing, even though I technically can do it myself, and if they prefer to do it themselves, I respect that.
I agree that technically that’s the correct procedure - although it does waste time. And nowadays it makes more sense, as every segment contribution will count for them.
First, let me make clear that I deplore the fact that there are no new Korean dramas for segmenters to segment because viki has made the decision to hire subbers for the current drama for fear of losing impatient subscribers to other streaming sites. As you might note from current offerings, it is rare for viki to have any new dramas with “A list” actors because it’s losing the bidding competition with NF, HU, DIS+, AMZN, all of which are actively showing newly created dramas with A list actors.
But I think the complaint that segments are being lost after adjustment during the editing process is unsupportable. Those segments should never have been cut so why is it unfair that the segments are deleted?
As a chief editor, I see all those problem segments which were added in the adjustment process which porkypine described. I would not call them unimportant. I call them unnecessary. I also see multiple segments cut in the same scene for the same sign on a wall or a building, desk plate, text which is backwards (eg. on glass on outside of building so backwards seen from the inside of the building), text which is cut off (one-half of a poster on a wall), text on screen for less than a second, segments less than a second for a whole page which is indecipherable, a one-second segment for a building directory, segments for interjections, and segments for phone numbers (How do you translate a phone number?), etc.
It is true when viki first started showing pre-subbed movies, the segments were very often poorly done. The segments often chopped up sentences into multiple parts as the subbers seemed to cut every time there was a brief pause. The subbers also didn’t sub the OST so no segments were cut. And the segments had no extensions after speech stopped to give the viewer time to read. During that time, chief segmenters really provided respite to the English editor. But those problems are much less prevalent now.
But I find now that there seems to be a lot of segments which are unnecessarily added in the adjustment process and occasionally, English subs have been lost in the adjustment process. I also question the addition of segments which need translation because so many K projects have no competent person to fill in the blanks.
By the way, I have no clear understanding of what happens to the contribution count if person B deletes a segment created by person A. Does the deletion subtract from A’s contributions or B’s contributions? When you look in “activities” and see a count of deletions, are those just deletions from your own creations or deletions in general?
That is not what this thread is about. My point is that those deletions, whether justified or not, reverse our renewed QC status even after renewing has been completed. This never happens when an editor corrects a subber.
Is it that black and white? If 2 seggers would cut the exact same part, would the result be exactly the same? And if not, does that mean that one of them is plain wrong?
If B deletes A’s segment, then A loses a contribution. B doesn’t lose or gain anything, but their act of deleting will be visible in Activities. The moment A created the segment is also visible in Activities, but since this happened way earlier, it would require some research to find out that the segment B deleted was made by A.
Being a segmenter is interesting, so be brave and enroll in the formation for segmenters, the sensei team was great, later you decide whether you will work on segments or not.
@Tourmaline – The rules may not be black and white but there are definitely “majority” opinions for unnecessary segments. For example, I subscribe entirely to the list posted by Porkypine so although the standards may not all be written in Ninja Academy guidelines for training segmenters, there does exist some unity of opinion about what is an unnecessary segment.
The original post states "This (reduction of segmenting contributions) is completely unfair. "
I addressed the concept of fairness. If a segment should never have been cut in the first place, what has the segmenter unfairly lost if someone else deletes an unnecessary segment?
From early on in the history of viki, the subbing tool always allows an infinite number of versions of a subtitle. I think the allowance of multiple versions of a subtitle incorporates the idea that translation is an art and a science. However, there is no allowance in the segmenting tool for multiple versions of a segment even though there may be subjective judgment used in segmenting. The learning process is not different from segmenting "for real’. When segmenters are trained at each level, there is only one mentor for each student at each level and even though the mentor might be considered arbitrary, that mentor’s opinion of necessary or unnecessary is the standard for the learner. In the same way, whether it is an editor or the chief segmenter on a channel, one person sets the standard for necessary or unnecessary (“black” or “white”).