Also, if it is the same person I mentioned, it looks like they work with you on some projects you can compile a list of the google translate segments and report the user.
Are you being honest in your advice to channel managers about moderators and translators in your language?!
Also, if it is the same person I mentioned, it looks like they work with you on some projects you can compile a list of the google translate segments and report the user.
It’s not a hazard you are #10?
I don’t know if anyone of you ever did some PVP (=Player vs Player) in an online game or maybe when you had irl sports as a hobby participating in a competition.
I do like PVP a lot and I also participated in sports competitions.
For me, the challenge & achievement system of VIKI with collecting badges/or get badges while participating in the community project called “bringing Asian shows to a worldwide audience” is a nice extra. It appears more like a game then.
The difference between the rank system of PVP within games and the rank system of VIKI might be that the PVP rank is usually bound to points & win/loss rate while VIKI’s rank depends on contributions without a “quality aspect” like win/loss rate.
نعم ، بالضبط هو الشخص بعينه و لكن ليس فجأة فمنذ 2014 هو يعمل كمترجم و تقريباً جيد الى حدٍ ما و لكن هناك أخطاء فظيعة لا يمكن تجاوزها كمترجمين للعربية فلغتنا رائعة و تستحق العناية ، أستغرب من شخصٍ يُتقن الأنجليزية أكثر من لغته الأم و هذا واحد فأنا أعرف أشخاصٍ أخرين و أرجو منهم الأستعانة بزملائهم هنا لمساعدتهم بالتحرير و لتكون ترجمتهم أسرع و أدق فلا أعتقد بأننا سنرفض المساعدة لأحد و لكن أمتلاك مشاريع متوقفة يجعل جميع المشرفين و المترجمين العرب في موضع نقد نحن في غنى عنه
That happens in the German community, too. Sometimes newbies are collecting more and more dramas and overestimate themselves and underestimate, how much work and time they have to spend on moderating a team. They have difficulties in finding enough subtitlers, because they have no “connections” and have to proove our subtitlers, that they are reliable and hard working on their projects. Moderators, who just delegate their work and don’t help actively on their dramas are not appreciated Those moderators start high and fall deep. It’s just a shame for the respective dramas.
The German Community has a Kakaotalk Chat for German-speaking subtitlers, not only Germans, but everyone, who speaks well enough German and could write subtitles. We are more than 300 subbers and moderators right now, not everyone active on Viki, but at least well informed
Moderators present their new projects and are looking for subbers and editors as well. Sometimes you know editors from past projects and could ask them, if they want to join your team. If you can’t find anyone, you have to continue searching or just help out yourself. I must admit, I only know very few editors, who are really reliable.
To have several editors for the same project, could work only if they are doing a first edit and second edit, but not mixed. Like you said, everyone has a different opinion and this could lead to confusions. A good editor should leave as much subtitles as possible, but edit as much as neccessary and should keep a kind of “flow”, so that the “speech”, the style or way of expression is the same. Usually a German editor is TE, GE and Chief in one person.
For people who don’t know Arabic and can’t read our previous couple of posts, I will give you a summary.
I figured out the person (on my own) since that person matched what hmk_201288_223 has described and I have been weirded out by their hoarding habit. I have never worked with the person, so I don’t know the quality of the subs but what I see from their recent contributions is that they are not subbing all of the OST segments and instead adding ♫ ♫ only to increase their subbing count.
However, the biggest problem with this user, is that they are hoarding all of the channel and they still take upcoming dramas. The user volunteer as the Arabic mod, but never start subbing at all or barely work on the subs. They are the Arabic mod for 27 channel, with most of the subs stopping in the first 2-3 episode or never started at all. Also, there are 9 channel that they are the Arabic mod on but have 0 contribution and many more only have their trailers subbed but not the episodes.
Moreover, the problem is that this person is the mod for a couple of recent popular K-dramas with 117229 followers and the other with 108284 followers, and the fans are demanding subs and as hmk_201288_223 said, some are complaining about the quality.
It is understandable if it is the only channel they are moderating and they are busy, but this person is juggling 27 channels at the same time, which make no sense. Hoarding channels and never working on them should not be acceptable. And if they really don’t even know Arabic that well, it is even more acceptable.
P.S. I’m not saying this with an ulterior motive because I’m interest in the channels that user take. I busy enough with channels I have. But I’m saying this because that behavior is not good, since other moderators, who are fast and better at translating, might want to help out but that user is hoarding, not finishing or starting the work on the channels they have, and refusing to allow co-moderators to help out.
All your comments are funny. I would say that honesty depends on who we are and who is in front of us.
If my friend is wearing an ugly dress, am I going to tell her that it’s ugly? Moreover, if a stranger in the street is ugly, will I stop to tell him that he is ugly? We each have our life and we only care about what concerns us. And if I stop to tell him he’s ugly, what does it mean to me? Why do I do it? Is it really to help him? I think that before coming forward to say something, the person should ask himself/herself what are his/her desires and goals. As we know, our unconscious desires and our greed, they are really in our lives.
But if I had to answer your question (from my personal point of view), I would say that:
For translators, editors and other moderators who are on other projects and we consider doing bad translations, what can we do? First, why do we have to do it? To ask myself this question of what makes me concerned by the other is the first thing (And do not tell me it’s just a question of helping other and having good translations for viewers, It would be lying to oneself).
First, the moderator is responsible for the quality of subtitles. So, if you choose to get involved in another person’s case, I think it’s fair and honest to first contact the moderator to gently explain your point of view. You can discussed as civilized people. If she does not listen or get upset, I would say that this is not a good thing but at the same time, which right would you come to judge without even being part of the team? You can also offer to help, simply. To tell a person simply “it’s bad” is not correct. You can also tell her that you would like to help for the quality of subtitles or that you see that one more editor could help so, you can advise people. Maybe this person is looking for help. You don’t know her, so…
If we do not tell this person (without being mean), how can she know? We all learn from our mistakes. I think that if your message is correct, this person will not be offended (except if she has an oversize ego, as some well-known editors on viki). Btw, aside, I will add that the English edition becomes less and less good on viki (what a shame). Are English editors bad? I do not think so, I think they are overwhelmed and as they do not delegate by ego, they make bad editions (especially korean ones lately). Anyway, I think we need to support new contributors instead of “denouncing” them.
Then, if you make the decision to contact the CM, what do you want the CM do? This is the real question here. I think it’s really you and your desires that make you contact the CM. Except if it concerns the English translation (and still depends if the CM is involved in the English team), I do not see how the CM can do something for your problem because the CM does not necessarily speak the same language . If you contact the CM, then it would be for removing the moderator from her position? I think it’s really a horrible position for the CM and the person who “denounces”.
However, if they are translators and editors of your team, if you are translator, editor or even moderator, I think that you can discuss with the project team since you are part of it, you can give your opinion and you can help to progress together.
Viki gave rules, yes, in relation to the quality of subtitles (which level of quality?). However, I do not think contributors are destined to become viki police. It’s Viki who has to take care of that (yes, we are a community, but they are a company) And I will add that in the perspective of recent dramas translated by Viki itself, I think that the level of quality they expect is well below the level we all impose on ourselves as volunteers.
Last thing, the number of subtitles does not reveal the quality of subtitles. It’s bullshit some people believe. I’m wondering if some would continue to translate if there was no subtitle counter…
Since it was written in Arabic, you might not have understood. But hmk_201288_223 said here:
That she volunteered to help co-moderate/edit the subs but that user refused. That person doesn’t have time to sub, but refuses when someone offers help. That is just plainly hoarding channels you don’t have time to work on.
A former viewer can become a translator/editor. A person who does care about language but does not know some (or maybe all) language teams have a lack of editors may not ask to join when the person thinks the teams don’t care about its language.
Thank you, dear, I appreciate your opinion. Everyone has the opinion that we should respect. When I put this post I did not mean to offend anyone, I just wanted to discuss the subject of everyone together here and find solutions without being insulted and hurt the feelings of our colleagues here and of course without mentioning the names of people.
You are my dear, you must at least know me. We have worked together in three projects (the eternal love , Grand Prince , The King of Blaze ) so far. Have you ever seen me greed for any other job? On the contrary, before starting a project I explain to the law teams in detail and I do not start any project unless they agree to the conditions and abide by me and is ready to answer them at any time and any question, if you do not believe you can ask any Arabic translator here and will tell you or the question About my translation and my work
Just a general comment, this doesn’t necessarily have to be an error. I skip it sometimes, as well. The OST can seriously mess up an intense scene. Content comes before an OST we’ve heard 10 times before in my book.
Also, some OSTs don’t even make sense, either being bad in the original language or simply badly translated to English.
This I have to strongly disagree with. Nobody owns a project on Viki. Not a moderator, not even a CM. It is a joint effort where everybody is supposed to do their best. If your best is not good enough, fine, but be ready for constructive criticism. Whether you are part of a team or not means nothing when a translation is so bad that the viewer can’t even follow the story. Our duty is to the viewers first. Every good moderator, editor or a random Viki contributor has that philosophy.
Honestly, if a person complaining is not ready to take over or at least help out on the project, I don’t see the point in contacting the CM. Removing a moderator from a position is a good thing when the old moderator has done a crappy job in translating and abandoned the project for longer than, for example, 6 months.
Allow me to disagree, my dear. I don’t know what has made you so pessimistic. Yes, there are surely many who are as you say, but many of us do really care about the quality of subtitles and that’s our only motive. I feel ashamed towards viewers when I see my beloved language butchered, when I see sentences which don’t make sense or have the opposite meaning of what was intended, or English idioms translated literally so that the viewer won’t even understand what’s going on in the drama.
Some people may interfere in other people’s work for selfish motives, but it’s not always the case, so let’s not put everyone in the same pile.
We are not Viki police, we are, if you like the term, language police. I don’t like it, because it’s derogatory, it makes it seem a ridiculous pursuit. We are passionate people who care about our language which is attacked daily by sloppiness, laziness, lack of education. Not because schools are bad and don’t teach stuff, but because students don’t give a damn. They didn’t pay attention at school, although they have the privilege of going to school, unlike so many 3rd world country children who are forced to work and would love to be able to have that privilege our students are despising and throwing away. The result? We have to teach new subbers the basics of our language grammar. I feel very sad I have to do this, and having seen your (excellent) Google spreadsheet with guidelines, I understand that in the French community the situation is similar, people make mistakes that whoever has finished 12 years of school shouldn’t be doing.
We also care about the Viki community and the dramas. The enjoyment of watching is spoiled by a poor translation.
That’s why believe that sloppy, arrogant contributors who think they are so good when in reality they barely know the basics, should crawl back under their stone and start humbly learning, instead of taking leadership positions they don’t have the skills to fulfill.
When someone doesn’t know the language well (English or their own language or neither of the two), typically they also don’t know that they don’t know. They think they are perfectly okay. That’s why they will be mortally offended if you tell them. They will think that you have ulterior motives. Yes, one could write to them, just in case, but don’t get your hopes too high that they will respond well. Most likely they will insult you.
And, quality aside, there are many who don’t even work on the dramas; I’ve seen this a lot in the Greek and Italian community. I learn that it’s the same for Arabic and for Vietnamese. People hoarding one drama after another, accumulating 20, 30 or more, when they cannot possibly have the time to do them all decently - so that many of those remain completely untouched. I’ve often wondered why they do that. Just for the sake of… power? or what?
By the way, I also blame CMs for this: they should check the person’s profile before giving them yet another moderation. You cannot check their language skills, but you can surely see the number of unfinished projects they have.
Do you think that writing a polite note saying “I notice you have 37 unfinished dramas, don’t you think you’re taking on too many? Why don’t you leave some of them?” will make any difference? Ha!
These people should be taken down from their throne and be put into their place. So that other people have the chance to work as well and the viewers can enjoy the translated dramas.
Viki cannot have a supervising editor for every existing language to judge the translation quality. Let’s be real! And, most importantly, the subtitle quality has been completely controlled by volunteers so far, and we want to keep it that way. We wouldn’t want Viki staff meddling into our editing. At least that’s how I feel about it.
True. At least for some of us. But the level “imposed” by volunteers varies very greatly. If you compare the ready subs to our best editors’ subs, they are surely not better. But there are also some very bad English subs on Viki, on the less popular shows, and some of them seem to be completely unedited. (I understand that the situation is much worse in Chinese dramas because of lack of volunteers). In those cases, the ready subs are better. At least they are a flowing, normal English, readily understandable. Yes, it’s “Americanized” and insipid, lacks all cultural flavour and sometimes is a summary of what’s being said. But it’s decent, you can immediately understand what’s going on without scratching your head with literal word-for-word translations from the Korean which make zero sense. If on the team there is a good T.E. and a good English editor, who can make them better (as we recently did for The Package), that’s wonderful. But if there is no good English team, those ready subs are a far better alternative.
It was a general message and not a message only for you. It should not be taken personally, HMK. I speak and discuss, I accept everyone’s opinion, do not worry. That’s just my opinion. I do not want to insult anyone either.
I think generally translations are bad in terms of spelling, grammar or conjugation (I’m speaking about French language because I am French), but it is not to the point that the story is incomprehensible. These are not hieroglyphics. So there is never any dramas where the story is incomprehensible as you say. It’s just that French sentences are bad in terms of French Language Academy. In this case, it lacks editing. Editors are few and personally, we start to get tired of having to translate again behind some (I don’t want to be an editor anymore for that). Now, I think I have no duty to viki or the other teams (Why would? Viki is not my job but I understand your point of view).I sometimes see dramas poorly edited because there are many errors, but the story is always understandable. The sentence is bad, but maybe the editing is in progress. I chose to watch without editing (Well, I always watch in english for that reason). Maybe there is no editor yet so you have to do with it (Or moderators need to have editing skills?). As long as the story is understandable and it is simply missing an edition, is it ok to remove the moderator? I also think that if the person speaks well by giving benevolent advice, the moderator will not get angry. Except if this person has an ego and does not want to accept criticism (Well, I think it’s rare, except for the stubborn known editors, but still remains within a small margin of error). I still think that we must keep a margin of error of 5% (we are human).
We need to remove some english editors and CM so…
Yes, some of us really care, like you. I care too about my language, but that does not mean that I will go talk with each contributor of viki because he made this mistake or this one on a drama that is edited, in edition or not. Or for each drama, I’m not the General French Editor of every drama. As I said, we have a marging error. We do not all have egoistic motivations, it’s true. If a translated and incomprehensible drama in 50% exists, in terms of meaning and comprehension and not spelling, grammar and conjugation, I understand why we must act.
We are not teachers and I am tired of explaining basic French rules, but I do it all the time (for my teams) because I have to believe that French is a difficult language, that most contributors on viki can be young and I do not want to tear my hair while editing. I am a person who always makes returns on the edition, but this is not the case for everyone. So, it’s up to the person to know if they want to progress or not. Many people may take offense at my remarks, as you say, it’s a shame. This is also why the majority of us only take 2 new ones per team. We must take care of them! And we are responsible for our team. But if my well-known colleague moderator, choose to take some and if this moderator is noted as an editor, but never do the editing, what do you think? What can you say? You will say “there are still mistakes”, “Yes I will edit”. Yet it will never be done. Anyway, it’s up to the translator to get involved too and want to learn.
Answer: Avidity. It’s ridiculous. In French, it’s usually moderators who never do editing. But nobody can know except the French contributors. Yet many French moderators you all know never do edition (they are the “editor” for the drama), yet they continue to take other projects. But the translation is done. In some languages, it’s never done. A CM once said to me: “I prefer to give it to her knowing that she is talented (How she know?) and even if it takes several months or years to do”… Huh?
They give because they have no choice, it is the only person who asks in this language. Or sometimes, they see that their dramas are translated, but do not know if they are edited. Or, they always give it to their friends. But they are to blame, you’re right.
Yes, sadly. But maybe for some language like Spanish, English, French, German, Italian or Indonesian… The most made languages on viki, maybe. Yes, I would like (only if the person is competent too ^^)
[quote=“irmar, post:35, topic:23573”]
True. At least for some of us. But the level “imposed” by volunteers varies very greatly. If you compare the ready subs to our best editors’ subs, they are surely not better. But there are also some very bad English subs on Viki, on the less popular shows, and some of them seem to be completely unedited. (I understand that the situation is much worse in Chinese dramas because of lack of volunteers). In those cases, the ready subs are better. At least they are a flowing, normal English, readily understandable. Yes, it’s “Americanized” and insipid, lacks all cultural flavour and sometimes is a summary of what’s being said. But it’s decent, you can immediately understand what’s going on without scratching your head with literal word-for-word translations from the Korean which make zero sense. [/quote]
I think translations and segmentation of viki are really bad but it can help if the editing is done seriously. You are right. Btw, I think English translations in Chinese are much better than some popular Korean dramas. Chinese contributors are amazing at translating so many dramas and episodes every day with a very satisfying level of translation. And even the best editors, as you say, are fallible. When you are overwhelmed, you make a “bad” edition. I can quote you a list of drama that could be better edited in view of the English editors they have (it’s not bad, but it’s not as good as the person could do by knowing their skill) BUT, it’s still really a good edition if we have 5% marging errors.
But I understand your point of view and I respect it. I would like everyone to be so concerned about her/his translations and what she/he does, but the reality is that this is not the case for everyone. We do not have time to take care of every drama. The margin of error should be 5%-10%. The reality is that we are more about a margin of error with 20%-30% because of the lack of good editors (or time, because some are good editors but with so many dramas, they will do 0 edition).
I think I was talking about dramas with errors that have not been edited, with 30% of sentences to edit but still understandable. It is possible that in some languages there are 100% incomprehensible translations, which is not the case in my language.
(This message is so long to answer all three that I got lost in my thinking, I hope I have been clear. I stopped several times to do something else. XD)
Yes, the situation is not ideal and we have to make the most of it, trying to achieve what we believe in while being civil and tactful. But also be decisive when we see something wrong. If people turn a deaf ear, then someone should take action, right? It’s not a free-for-all.
The story may not be incomprehensible as a whole, but the dialogue may be incomprehensible if the subber translates an English idiom word by word, with absurd results - you don’t know whether to laugh or to cry.
An example from the Italian subs of “Five Children”.
Context: The golfer couple is taking a walk, at night, in a remote neighbourhood, the boy taking the girl home. They are alone, no shops in view, they are chatting. The girl asks the boy if he can do something and he replies, confidently: “Oh, that’s a piece of cake”
And the Italian subber translates: “Ah, questo è una fetta di torta”. (in French it would be “C’est un morceau de gâteau”)
Which is the faithful translation of what she read in English. Yes, but in English “it’s a piece of cake” means “for me it’s very easy”. There is no cake in view in the video, they were not talking about food or cakes or whatever. So, even if the subber doesn’t know this particular English idiom (one is not obliged to know them all, they are so many), shouldn’t she be suspicious, that it can’t be possibly be that, and research it a little more? But no, they blissfully translate word by word, with no care in the world. Here we’re not talking about ignorance but about laziness, lack of care and responsibility.
I’m always super understanding with people who are ignorant but willing to improve. But the ones who just write and write without thinking, and don’t even look at their work again… no, they won’t be in my next team, sorry.
Same with moderators. I asked a very good and very famous moderator to complete and edit the translation of an old drama of which I was CM. She accepted, seemingly with pleasure. After one year of complete inactivity, she wrote asking me to moderate a new and hot film of which I was also CM… I asked her why she has not even touched the previous project, and she replied that a recent film is different from an old drama and she will be different here. I’m sure she would, but… If you were in my shoes, would you have given her the new project? Would you contact her again?
I wish I could say this for Croatian/Serbian/Bosnian, as well. Unfortunately, I cannot because, as @irmar already pointed out, individual subs here in some dramas make very little sense. And when you compile enough of those, you get some very frustrated viewers. My mom is an avid K-drama viewer (hence her daughter translates), but there were several occasions where she dropped the show angrily because she couldn’t follow the plot due to wrong subs. Not bad, but simply just wrong. And it’s mostly in those cases where I think others should actively react.
When it comes to spelling and grammar, and taking into account newbies, there is a fine balance there - what should be criticised, how much and in what way. Learning is a gradual process. I personally can’t learn everything in one go and I don’t expect others to, either. However, if you repeat to someone the same error three different times and they still don’t “get it”, it’s not that they didn’t understand. It’s that they simply don’t care. And this may very well be the main source of our frustration. Stubbornness.
Those who think they know it all will never learn anything new.
No, no, not at all. That wasn’t really my point. But, honestly, that person should not be a moderator/editor, but a translator. Editing is for us obsessive-compulsive language lovers.
I would think that person is a bad moderator/editor.
Yes! The “raw” English in Chinese dramas is quite often better than edited English in Korean dramas.
Good discussion, everyone. Thank you
That’s true. Also, it’s not quite equitable (for Viki) to calculate or to incentivize this aspect which does not take into account factors like accuracy of translation/segment, role of contributor (subber vs editor; segger vs seg QC; subber vs segger), and so on.
On the other hand, it’s an easy way to count and tally contributions. In that sense, I applaud Viki for such efforts in encouraging and rewarding volunteers.
If only Viki would implement a way for volunteers to reward other volunteers, for instance, by ‘paying it forward’ - forwarding or designating one’s “earned gift/reward” to another volunteer or two as a form of appreciation or encouragement. This would also be a bonding factor for volunteers.
We should. Absolutely.
Absolutely, in view of the limited number of words/lines vs the ease of viewing, be it a matter of a crowded screen or timing.
Hmm… As a lover of OSTs, I’ve not come across any OST that does not make sense in its original language (of which I understand). Instead, I tend to be (musically) intoxicated by the beautiful lyrics and voices.
However, I do agree its another level of skill/proficiency for translators to be able to translate lyrics that would not just be comprehensible, not just be in context, but would flow well, too. Still, the community’s translators (at least in the languages that I understand) are pretty awesome.
Ideally, yes. However, “everybody is supposed to do their best” is a fallacy in itself because one’s “best” could be a “6” while another’s could be a “9”. Not that the numbers are of any value here, just pointing out the differences in POV or attitude.
Often, the quality of translation is not the reason for some viewers not being able to follow the story. Some viewers love to skip scenes or cast while some may need more than one watch to comprehend the plot.
I disagree. I believe the volunteer community’s duty or responsibility should lie, first and foremost, in the quality of one’s contribution, the quality of the final product (in one’s language, in a reasonable time frame) - one that’s segmented, translated and edited. Why should volunteers cater to/appease impatient viewers? As it is, many would demand for subtitles for dramas that aren’t even on-air. Not saying that volunteers should ignore viewers (drama fans), as volunteers are after all viewers (drama fans) ourselves.
On the subject of “the final product”, I do often lament the sight of Viki’s ‘first/draft’ subtitles on other sites since they would take the subtitles before they are “finalized”. As a result, there’s an increasing number of comments about the “state” of Viki’s subtitles. If only there’s a way to denote. Still, IMO, the community is doing a pretty good job.
In my native language many articles from Newspapers and newer published novels have terrible grammar mistakes. Even when it is a large publisher. Way too often they use the English grammar rules in the way they build a sentence so the true meaning of the sentence gets lost in German. I really do hate that, since I know that in the past articles weren’t like that and books weren’t like that. It also happens a lot (same with some subs) that they choose the wrong verb when it is a combined verb with a prefix (one may think people would know these specific aspects for their own language, but no, not today…)
So times I have to read a newspaper article/line 3 times until I “get” what is meant.
I also met people who call themselves (aspiring)/new authors but aren’t able to use their own language in a correct way, saying: for a story it doesn’t matter if one is capable of writing within a language’s grammar, rules etc.
I don’t know why people are like that today. Maybe it is because they think in the internet era it doesn’t matter anymore or that if they don’t know hwo to do it right others also don’t know.
I start to do that too. One reason is that the English subs mostly were better (and if I wanna watch a new show I don’t want to wait “forever” until it is subbed in other languages) and the other is that due to the specifics of English it is less stressful to watch as subs. (German and French are extensive languages that need much efforts in builidng a sentence and it’s easy to have 3-10 lines then. So it’s often impossible to realize the whole sentence/s within a scene without pausing).
So for me English is in most cases my favourite language when I watch something with subs.
Same thing is happening in Croatian and surrounding languages (Slovenian, Serbian, Bosnian). Journalists and politicians use faux-Croatian expressions, which are croatinized English words and phrases, to distinguish themselves from the rest of the mere folk. The way they speak confuses people and makes their ideas seem overly grandiose, while their audience doesn’t really understand them and, hence, can’t criticise them. The situations is so absurd that they may use in one sentence two words meaning exactly the same thing, except one is “pure” Croatian and the one is false Croatian.
You’re welcome dear, do you like it . it is my pleasure