Moderators who hoard channels

[irmar]

But sometimes Disqus won’t let me log in and uses my Google ID, which is different, so people may think, we are two different persons,

Ah, the Disqus bug! Sorry, this is slightly off-topic, but it’s something that’s bothering me.
Normally, when you’re logged in at Viki, you should also automatically be logged in at Disqus. But sometimes this doesn’t work, and if you want to comment (or write in TD) it won’t let you, it will ask to login. And then you will appear with your Disqus name and avatar.
The way I went around this is that I have made a separate Disqus account. My Disqus name and Viki name are exactly the same, they are both “irmar”, and my avatar is a cat in both, only a different cat (so that I know which one I’m logged in with). So people don’t get confused, they won’t even notice.
This cat.
The problem is that one “me” cannot edit my comments or delete them or do anything if they are first written with the other “me”.

End of parenthesis/rant, I promise to stay on topic from now on.

[bozoli]

I very much agree with @angelight313_168. You should not have to be afraid to speak out.

Same as no person is perfect, no CM is perfect, no Mod is perfect.

There are indeed some CMs who like to work with the same Mods over and over again. They consider them their permanent team members, more reliable. But the keyword here is “consider”, since it can seriously backfire on a CM when the Mod they trusted simply doesn’t have the time to translate or she/he is not inspired to translate that particular show. Or they are just completely incapable, but the CM is still not aware of it. I saw this “system” deeply hurt a really good person here on Viki, who is ironically one awesome volunteer.

Choosing the same Mod over and over again, despite the fact that another person had already applied first to be a Mod and she/he might be equally capable, is a form of nepotism.

1. It gives a lot of projects to only a few individuals on Viki and those individuals sometimes can’t handle the workload, even though they applied for the position themselves. I know for a fact that Mods in my language(s) are constantly fighting to get the most popular shows and they will apply even though they haven’t finished their prior projects. As we mentioned some people are natural hoarders and want as many projects as they can get. Not all CMs check if their permanent Mod has finished any or all of their previous common projects.

2. Potentially excellent Mods are skipped because CMs are hesitant to take a chance on them, whether they have never worked with the CM or they are simply new to Viki. A not-so-elaborate investigation into the candidate for the mod position might include, as @irmar and others already mentioned, a look into their profile page, looking at the number of finished and current projects, number of contributions per project and the ability to form teams. As far as the quality of the subs is concerned, that can only be checked by another mod of the same language. It’s not that much work and it means the world to the fresh Mod.

3. It creates bad atmosphere here on Viki, where we are supposed to have more or less equal opportunities based on equal performance.

Despite my years on Viki and the number of contributions and the incessant insisting on better quality subs, I was also mysteriously skipped a few times without any explanation. In one of these cases every single one of my four emails was somehow overseen and two moths later a different person was chosen as Mod. Needless to say that person had previously worked with the same CM on several projects. They were buddies.

Bottom line, nepotism is real on Viki and it contributes significantly to hoarding.

Normally, when you’re logged in at Viki, you should also automatically be logged in at Disqus. But sometimes this doesn’t work,

I had that once and somebody told me to adjust my cookies settings. Worked like a charm. However, you say it happens only sometimes for you. So, the issue might not be the same.

[teufelchen_netty_266]

I also got many times not choosen as Mod even if I wrote the CM 30 seconds after the viki mail came that that person became the CM. Not even got a mail with sorry there is already someone back while other german German subbers got a no sorry back from he CM.
So sometimes I wonder what happens. The choose the one who applied first isn’t normal these days.

Happens to me lastly on 2 dramas which were super hyped these days and i the past also on hyped dramas

[somejuwels]

To be the first one, who sends a message, doesn’t mean to get the moderator position for granted.
If you think, you were the first one and doesn’t get the moderator position, well, there could be many reasons, why the channel manager selected someone else. Maybe someone else was faster, maybe you have too many on air dramas right now or any other reason.

And yes, it happens, that CMs don’t write back, if they selected some other moderators. It’s a bit disappointing, but it happens and I don’t take it personally.

I only apply for the channel manager position, if I’m really willing to take this job and not only to get the message from Viki, that they didn’t chose me, before the new channel manager is visible for others, so I could use this advantage and those few minutes, in order to apply before anyone else.

When Viki selects me as Channel Manager, I usually wait 24 hours and review all applications for moderator positions, before I choose someone. In the past I often added the first one, but now I have several criterias: 1. Yes, first comes, first serves. 2. Do I know this person from other dramas? 3. Have we worked together well? 4. How many moderator positions for on air dramas has this person? 5. How many for upcoming, non-licensed dramas?

If someone applies for the first time for a moderator position and/or for languages I don’t speak, I look into their profile and ask their former moderators, how they worked in their teams or some experienced moderators, if they could take a look into their subtitles.

For some languages I get several applications, so I compare the applicants. But for other languages I get just one application and sometimes this applicant is in many of my teams, just because there are so few others for this language.

[somejuwels]

The cookie settings works great, if the comment sections suddendly dissappears. But sometimes Disqus uses my Google ID and not even the Disqus ID, which is somejuwels, too. Not often, but it happens. Some kind of bug I guess.

[dudie]

I used to do first come, first serve and I don’t check the comment section first. But now for some positions I wait a little too to see what my options are. And I do check profiles when I’m making my choice. Like when I have to choose between a good mod with many current proects or a good mod who doesn’t have anything at the moment I usually pick the person of whom I think has the most time.

But yes for some mod positions you see the same persons because for some languages the mod position isn’t that popular and I don’t want to wait a week or so for in case someone else comes by. I once had an argument about that because when I got a channel, the next day someone applied for a mod position of a not so popular language. I knew that person had many projects so I decided to wait 2 days to see if someone else wanted the position too so I could give someone else a chance too. Nobody PMed me so I selected the mod. 3 weeks later someone PMed me for a mod position in that language. So I said there is already a mod and the person should PM him/her to see if they need a co-mod or something. Then the person went “But she got all the channels! I never have been given a chance!” uhm… what do you want me to do? Kick the other one out again because you want it? You should have PMed me earlier.

Or the argument “but her subs are bad, why is she added all the time!” well we CM’s don’t know all languages so we don’t know someone is good or bad. And if someone is copy/pasting or uses Google Translate I usually say that the person should collect proof and report the person to Viki. They should deal with people who don’t follow the rules. We already have our hands full on other things.

[dudie]

The thing that bothers me is, why the message gets so fast to those bad moderators that are giving poor quality in their work overall? The newbies that want to sub or do other work in the dramas that have potentials, never get the message.

I do have an idea on that… You know you can apply for CM right? I apply for CM for all drama I would like to work on. Not because I want to be a CM for all of them. No, because if a CM is selected Viki will send out a message to everyone who has applied to tell who they selected. And if you are active on Viki like every day…

This doesn’t count for drama which Viki decided to manage on their own somehow. So every once in a while you notice a CM is selected but you didn’t get a PM about it.

And that’s how I usually notice I am selected as a CM because before I get to Viki’s message I was selected, sometimes my inbox already exploded.

[bozoli]

Or the argument “but her subs are bad, why is she added all the time!” well we CM’s don’t know all languages so we don’t know someone is good or bad. And if someone is copy/pasting or uses Google Translate I usually say that the person should collect proof and report the person to Viki. They should deal with people who don’t follow the rules. We already have our hands full on other things.

I think CMs should actively participate to ensure quality subs for all languages, no matter how full their hands are. Perhaps the time for this is not right while the show is being translated to English. But after that, if a random person comes in and says bozoli’s subs are so bad I can’t even understand the story, I think my CM should seriously enquire if my subs are at least of decent quality.

Getting an answer from Viki after a complaint takes its sweet time, and the CM of the project involved should be CC-ed on those complaints, merely to follow up on the situation and how Viki has resolved it months later.

However, a CM doesn’t have to wait for a final say from Viki to enquire about the quality of subs her Mod and Mod’s team made. As I mentioned, they may contact a third independent person to check the subs and make their decision after that.

Relying solely on Viki to fix the problem doesn’t resolve the situation fast enough. Meanwhile, if the current Mod is indeed crappy, she is generating thousands of no good subs and the CM is loosing the opportunity to work with a potentially good new Mod.

[dudie]

I think CMs should actively participate to ensure quality subs for all languages, no matter how full their hands are. Perhaps the time for this is not right while the show is being translated to English. But after that, if a random person comes in and says bozoli’s subs are so bad I can’t even understand the story, I think my CM should seriously enquire if my subs are at least of decent quality.

It’s not that simple. I actually had someone go “X. subs in language Y. are so bad, looks as if X. used Google Translate. Please add me as a mod so I can fix them.” I asked a friend who was Y. native to check the quality and see if the claims where correct. And that friend said there was nothing wrong with the subs and they where not Google Translate subs. I don’t have friends for all languages and yes I can check in Google Translate if they are copy pasted but that’s pretty much all I can do.

[sonmachinima]

Somehow your posts are confusing. On one side you say a mod is not there for doing subs on the other you say the subs are bad because of a mod.

In general it seems that only the English teams are always working with editors.

Unless other language teams don’t work like that the subtitles’ quality will vary a lot depending on how many volunteers are translating and how they are as translators.

So from the viewers’ perspective one could either wait until another language than English is (maybe) edited at some point or watch it with potentially bad subs or watch it in English in first place.

Another aspect is the amount of new dramas, number of volunteers and time. Should volunteers for other languages first edit a drama until its end or better start working on a new one so more dramas are available with subtitles in many different languages in a shorter time instead of less new dramas but more dramas with subs in a better quality…?

[dudie]

Somehow your posts are confusing. On one side you say a mod is not there for doing subs on the other you say the subs are bad because of a mod.

In general it seems that only the English teams are always working with editors.

That depends. Some other language teams have an editor, some don’t. And some mods work alone because they couldn’t find people to help or whatever reason. And yes there are mods that are bad subbers themselves and sometimes they recruit bad subbers. Or good subbers who get annoyed that their mod subs so badly.

[justine_desmoulins]

I don’t know for other languages, but I’ve always had to create subtitles even as a moderator. Being a moderator doesn’t just include sending messages and giving parts. It’s a much more than that.

Being a moderator implies forming a team, reviewing episodes to organize vocabulary, characters, songs… sending message of course, replying to comments, following advancement of the team, even editing.(In my opinion) SO yes, it’s a lot of work and subtitling isn’t always what moderators have in mind.

But there’s always that moment when you get near the end of the drama, and when everyone leaves. That’s a well known fact. So you’ve got no other choice but to subtitle. Whether popular kdrama or chinese historical. (It’s more often the case in the latter one still).

Because if you don’t work on it, it becomes your responsability, as you were not able to moderate your drama properly, to complete it in a decent amount of time. We can’t decently force subtitlers to come. Sending messages is a solution to wake them up. But that’s unfortunatly not always working…

(You also have to know that on some drama, there are absolutely no subtitler available. No one applies, No one answer positively. What can you do then? Give up on the drama because that’s not your job to subtitle? That’s not how I think things.)

You should probably talk it out with whomever you’re talking about. I don’t know how they work, what opinions they have. I just hope I managed somehow to make you see how language moderators usually work.

But everyone thinks different.

[justine_desmoulins]

You, yourself said here NEAR the end of the drama. I’m talking about moderators that from Episode 1 are taking parts and doing the subtitles in the dramas. I also mentioned that this moderators have upto 14 subbers in their team and yet, they are doing the subs too.

I’m sorry, I don’t know how spanish team works, but I don’t see how bad it is to subtitle in a drama you moderate. As long as everyone can get their share, I don’t mind. Spanish Teams and French teams are probably very different in the way they work. We’re a TEAM. Everyone together. A moderator is supposed to lead the way. Moreover, it’s motivating for the team to see a moderator work with them.

Then perhaps the problem stand in the number of subtitlers allowed on a drama? 14 is a decent amount. Everyone should be able to participate still.

Does that makes sense to you? I also said ‘‘this I have observed in the Spanish Teams’’. I don’t know what other language you know but I didn’t say every moderator does that, I said:

And that’s why I’m explaining that it’s current among a OL team to subtitle, while giving you some exemples. So I’m not shocked as to see it happen in spanish teams.

The point i’m trying to make here is that we have ppl like bozoli that can give quality work but since she’s not in their buddy system, many times she’s pushed to the side. That is the reason why I feel this behavior has got to change already bc is affecting the quality in the subtitles (dramas overall)

And Unfortunatly that’s a thing that dates back to long ago. I do think that with Viki’s new policy on appointing CM, things changed a bit. Because there are lots of new CM. And therefore more room for everyone. But maybe that’s not enough for spanish teams?

What probably come next is trying to find a solution to this?
But that is a much harder task, and unless Viki is meddling into this, I don’t see how it can change sadly.

[irmar]

In general it seems that only the English teams are always working with editors.

What? No. I always edit the projects I moderate as an Italian mod or Greek mod.

[irmar]

I don’t see how bad it is to subtitle in a drama you moderate. As long as everyone can get their share, I don’t mind. Spanish Teams and French teams are probably very different in the way they work. We’re a TEAM. Everyone together. A moderator is supposed to lead the way. Moreover, it’s motivating for the team to see a moderator work with them.

Exactly. And it’s not only towards the end of the drama. Sometimes people don’t come on time, so you have to finish what they left undone. In my case, I sometimes have too few subbers, like 5-6. Because I don’t want the crappy ones. Yes, I pick and choose. I also give a chance to a new person on an on-air show, but only one, otherwise it’s too time-consuming for me. The others must be experienced. In “While You Were Sleeping” and in “Encounter” there were only 9 subbers (and not all coming regularly), so yes, I had to fill in very often. Nothing bad with that.

And I don’t care at all about my subtitle numbers. Nowadays I mostly work as English editor, which is MUCH more time-consuming than subbing. If I were interested in numbers, I would take lots of older projects and sub them on my own: I’m lightning quick, remember I’m a professional translator in real life, and a speed typist reaching 240 characters per minute. So yeah, I’d have about a million subs by now if I wanted. Whereas editing an episode can easily take 4-5 hours - depending on how well it’s subbed.

[bozoli]

To be the first one, who sends a message, doesn’t mean to get the moderator position for granted.
If you think, you were the first one and doesn’t get the moderator position, well, there could be many reasons, why the channel manager selected someone else. Maybe someone else was faster, maybe you have too many on air dramas right now or any other reason.

And yes, it happens, that CMs don’t write back, if they selected some other moderators. It’s a bit disappointing, but it happens and I don’t take it personally.

I agree that there are plenty of valid reasons why first come, first served rule shouldn’t be applied when a CM chooses a moderator.

However (and this is a big however), the CM should always explain her reasons. Feedback is essential for the growth and improvement of this community. How can a candidate improve her chances for the next mod position if she doesn’t know why she was rejected?

I understand your point but that’s why the blame always falls on the CM in the drama, and not the Moderator doing the rotten job by giving bad subtitles, delays in the subs being in the drama on time and so on…

Oh, no, for incomplete or bad subs first and foremost I blame the Moderators. Any reasonable person would. But unfortunately, the best people to resolve these issues are CMs in a conversation with Mods.

Moderators are not suppose to be doing subtitles but lately that’s exactly what they are doing.

I think you’re writing this from the Spanish language point of view. Smaller languages rely often exclusively on Moderators to sub a drama. Other subbers come in as if they are on a field trip, contributing whatever they want, without any sense of obligation to stay until the drama is completed, knowing that precisely this is their Moderator’s job.

Additionally, it’s stated in Viki guidelines that a moderator must contribute at least a few hundred subs. A moderator is a working and organising position, not entirely organising.

But in EVERY language I believe that some (not all of them) are becoming moderators and do all the subtitles as well, bc I’m guessing they have all the time in the world to be here.

Again, that is not usually the case. I’m extremely happy when I have one extra person in my language to do one out of six parts per episode. Volunteers in my language are scarce at best.

In general it seems that only the English teams are always working with editors.

What? No. I always edit the projects I moderate as an Italian mod or Greek mod.

I think she meant a separate person who only does the editing. But, again, that is not completely true, since teams of bigger languages also sometimes have Editors.

[irmar]

I think she meant a separate person who only does the editing. But, again, that is not completely true, since teams of bigger languages also sometimes have Editors.

Actually, lately, whenever I can have this luxury, I do appoint a first editor to do the grunt work before me or, better still, a post-release editor to catch whatever I might have missed. Two pairs of eyes are better than one.

[sonmachinima]

@irmar
@bozoli

I agree with your opinion. That would be the ideal workflow.

[dudie]

I forgot to mention 2 things that I also put into account when I select a moderator.

That is their skill in English. Some write me in their native language for a mod/sub position and I 99% ignore those because I don’t understand the language and if that person didn’t take the time to make sure I could understand their PM, why should I take that effort?! Write me in Dutch or English and you are fine. Sometimes I write them in my native language as a hint. 90% gets it and writes in English, the others keep writing me in their native language telling me they don’t understand what I just said. Well that’s whole point I was making. Some go that far as to writing me the same message like multiple times a week/day in their native language. I reported a few of those to Viki for spamming.

And some PM me in broken English for a mod position and state they are bad at English. I always decline those too and tell them I only hire people who are good at English because good communication is key. And ask them how they plan to deliver good subs with their broken English when Google Translate is forbidden.

[dudie]

I saw a comment about how one of you took a friend’s opinion as better than the complaint made by someone about the quality of translations. My question is: is that friend an authority, are you sure that your friend is sincere or able to judge correctly, or her/his words are valid only based on your friendship.

Yes, I’m sure. That friend also prefers quality over quantity. Never takes more projects then she can handle. I trust her judgement more then someone I don’t know who out of the blue tells me someone elses subs are bad and offers help to edit. Really you don’t want to know how many people lie on Viki. People who claim to be fluent in Korean while they copy paste 3rd party subs etc etc.

Ohh and I’m one of those CM’s who does welcome newbies. I helped quite a few amazing volunteers to get started because we all have to start somewhere. But for some languages there is a lot of competition and yes I noticed there is some rivalry too at times. For segging I do require someone graduated from NSSA/SEG 101 for the obvious reasons but I welcome those who freshly graduated looking for their very first real project.