Petítion to Adress Unfair Practices in Distributing Translation

Contributing
48

This kind of thinking is what keeps the controlling group of CM many OL are faced with. RVIKI higher ups can not keep allowing certain group of people continuing this pattern of unfair behavior of PREVENTING and not allowing others that CAN give better quality work never to have the chance to do so. Although I may not agree with certain suggestions I am 100% sure that STRICT changes in rules as CM/MOD/Subber will bring positive and FAIR changes to all who are willing to do their volunteer here. We already know we have many working here that are providing poor quality work, but for years now they continue to go project from project while others never get to have that chance.

YOU yourself KNOW the possibility of that changing is a straight impossibility; quote/unquote ‘‘IF that ever changes…’’

In your opinion, and for what you wrote here, the future CM will be with this ‘‘choking rules,’’ but because the FAIR changes and new ‘‘fair choking rules’’ IS the reason another new CM was given a chance to work in a drama, movie, etc., bc of this ‘‘choking rules’’ as you call them, many other capable CM’s were able to offer their quality work here at RVIKI; as it should always be in the first place.

QUALITY work here at this site is ONLY being affected because this vicious cycle of ‘‘I want to continue working with my group’’ even if certain ppl. in those groups are incapable of giving quality work. You yourself know for a fact that some ppl. kept as constant CM’s Mod’s Subbers some are incapable of providing quality work , but yet and because they are part of the ‘‘bunch’’ they get to stay there no matter how crappy their work is and NOT because they are faster bc that’s just an excuse here to maintain their control groups.
I have to clarify that my main issue here is when it comes to poor quality translation in any given language because they ARE using translation tools to write their translation since they are not proficient enough in the Language (whatever language it is) Hungarian, Spanish and even English because we have certain Editors using words that don’t belong in the drama/movie etc., in the first place. IT has happened in your language too, and has caused you frustration bc I have read it before.

I can tell you for a fact that a person in the DUTCH language provided a translation, and when I translated it to English it didn’t made sense at all. To the contrary, when I always check your DUTCH translation into English; it always make perfect sense! This person has been here for many, many years (you would think she be a master in that language already).

I don’t understand why…[NOT] (of course she’s part of the bunch that sticks together).

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49

I don’t understand why some people are talking about establishing new rules. For me, the main problem comes from Viki who always appoint the same people to the role of CM. That’s the first thing needed to change.
Otherwise, they can get rid of the button " Apply to be a Channel Manager". They encourage us to try again if we’re not chosen, but some of us have been trying for years.

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50

The only rules which need to be established are those of how Viki chooses their CMs. Then and only then do we stand a chance of Viki choosing the CM fairly.

At this point it’s Wild West. No rules, privileged groups, and people feeling like crap for wanting to freely give their precious hours of their lives, but not meeting “the standard”.

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@bozoli @mas4 @mirjam_465 @cgwm808 Spot on! I’d like to add, besides fairness in choosing CMs or flagging, it should also apply to fairness in other unjust or non-transparent practices, and of which this thread attempts to address one of them.

Good going! @mizuki_aikawa_sama :+1: I wish you success, or at least some form of positive change for the Romanian language community. Of course, positive change is needed for all OL communities, and not forgetting, for the English community as well.

Summary

@mizuki_aikawa_sama I’ve signed your petition, and have requested Viki to oversee not just the Romanian community’s petition, but also to look into the entire Viki Contributor Community. :crossed_fingers: :muscle:

Personally, it used to only be a suspicion, but hearing from many thus far is making me feel really discouraged about the current state of how this entire community (Viki-wide) has degraded as a whole and why Viki is still doing nothing to curb it from an increasing descent into infamy. :exploding_head:

:frowning_face: :palms_up_together: :thinking:

Indeed! That would effectively negate the scenario of any single channel manager being assigned to more than one drama/movie channel within a short span of time, or at least not for a long while. Not only that, it would also effectively negate the issue of privileged groups, bias, and so on when it comes to distribution/assignment of moderators, segmenters and subtitlers.

:persevere: :confounded: :thinking:

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52

If given the opportunity, everyone would be able to improve and try themselves. If it doesn’t work out for him/her, he learns from it.

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53

There’s a saying: that ‘‘there’s no worse blind than the ones who don’t want to see.’’ It’s in your face, and you don’t see it? VIKI and the controlling groups are ONE. Viki is run by these controlling groups, and the only way to stop this is, NOT VIKI STAFF, but the ones who own this site appoints someone outside the Rviki control groups, and make sure to implement new rules, and make sure to enforce these new rules.

The control groups took over again, and I see it when I see the same person in a drama as Moderator, Subber of two or more language (which it should not happen) although you/we may know more than one language; don’t be greedy work on one language only! How can they provide quality with so much to do on a given set time?‘’

Give a chance to another newbie, or regular subber to work on one of the other language you may know. No matter how proficient you may be a 15 minute scene takes 1 hour or more so the person that wants to work subbing in those 2 language they are depriving another person on having a chance to sub in that language. How can they possibly give quality work with so much to do in a certain amount of time?

*In the case of a language that has a very small team, and not many subbers this situation may not apply, but there are many ways they can give support to the small groups for whatever language it may be, and help them out with a co-CM even if the person (co-cm) doesn’t know the original language they may help in other ways. I read of someone feeling overwhelmed bc they have so much loadwork, and not enough people in their team for that language. They can assign a paid subber of that language to help that small team until the project ends (kind of like substitute teacher that fill in when the teacher can’t or to help the teacher in anything they need help for).

I have seen many in a drama as Moderator of one language and as subber of that language, and in that same drama as Moderator of another language (they know) and in top of that; they are also subbers of that language, and GET THIS! Editors of the English language too!

Tell me: what need is there for this person to ‘‘hog’’ so much when others are waiting in line to get to work and provide their quality work in dramas/movies, etc., in one of those language or as an English Editor? Why are volunteers here or even paid subbers to have so many roles in one drama?

WHY am I seeing here the same people working as English Editors in so many different dramas when they can appoint someone else that may provide better quality since in my opinion some people here SUCK big time when it comes to their English Editing, but I see them drama after drama doing just that; as ENGLISH EDITORS. Who keeps them there? The controlling groups we have here. Their seniority here at RVIKI gives them first place, but they should be fair and give someone else willing and able to do the volunteer work.

Let me mention something else that is very important for me to make others aware of; there is certain people that work as English Editors, but have to use translation tools because they ARE not too proficient in the English Language (or whatever other reason) you see them constantly ADDED as English Editors in drama/movies etc… I ask myself; why they don’t give others that may not need the use of translators at all, and provide quality work a chance too?

So… I have gone to these English Editors contribution page, and I noticed that when the drama/movie comes pre-subbed they overlook a lot of things that are wrong in the sentence, but what they do is ‘‘fix’’ one or two words that didn’t needed fixing in the first place, and leave what was wrong in the subtitle as is.

They get credit (contribution count) they don’t deserve since they failed to give a better quality in those subtitles (bc in pre sub dramas/movies they leave a lot of mistakes in the subs since they are not proficient enough they can’t tell the difference) Isn’t the job of an English Editor to provide a good quality English subtitle? We didn’t lose quality bc they had to rush and provide quantity in most of this cases, we lost quality bc someone/another volunteer better qualified was never given a chance to do so.

*I want to point out I have no interest in doing any kind of work here, and is sad that the situation now has gotten even worse since many other language are also facing this unfair distribution of work here at Rviki just like the Hungarian Language team is facing right now. Hear them and support them too.

PS. This problem goes way back. Check this link out some ppl. translate EVEN in a Language they don’t know.

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54

Yes, exactly.

These are huge problems at Viki, but the question, I think, is: why do Viki staff condone this? How does this benefit them at all? I can’t think of any rational argument that would make these practices a good idea. Speed? But if speed is the only or top consideration, why don’t they just add auto-generated AI translations to the subtitles? No volunteers needed. (Maybe segging could also be done by AI?) Do they want to keep up appearances? But it is costly: they need to maintain the infrastructure for subbing and nobody’s fooled: viewers can see if the translation is robotic and not adjusted to the actual situation in the scene. Maybe they think running a fairer system would require too much staff time so they just let everything go to the dogs? I don’t know. Strange business logic though. In my experience, if something is run badly, the number one reason tends to be negligence. The whole project is not important enough for anyone to be run well, so they just let it go downhill slowly but surely. We all know these problems have been around for quite a few years and Viki is still here. Maybe they are right: for cost and benefit considerations, this is the best thing they can do. Although I still think AI would be cheaper in the long run, but I may be wrong.

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55

It is.

Sure, that already happens. But it still takes humans to fix the results of that practice.

Viki listens to the impatient viewers and those don’t care about good subtitles/segments, if they can distinguish them at all. People nowadays are used to being able to watch anything anywhere the moment they feel like it. They see it as their right.

Probably and the impatient viewers wouldn’t care either way. And maybe we are slowly heading toward that. But getting rid of the volunteers completely would also mean a change in reputation for Viki. What would be special about them then?

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56

That they are cheap? I don’t know.

What you wrote is a bit sad.I still would like to believe that good translation matters. At least, to the viewers.

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57

Well, it might matter to some viewers, but those are not the ones sending angry messages to Viki about missing subs.

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58

It benefits the controlling group because they get large amount of contribution count (quality has no priority for most of this ‘‘hoggers).’’

It benefits the site because paying or none paying viewers that don’t care about better quality subtitles GET to have subtitles in the drama at a faster rate of time. For what I read here some viewers are always complaining for subtitles not being available in dramas on time. So far I have not seeing those comments.I have seen many comments that the subs in their ‘‘native language’’ are terrible and were done with translation tools.

@nectarine_tart
if speed is the only or top consideration, why don’t they just add auto-generated AI translations to the subtitles?

They have that system already here at Rviki those are the dramas/movies that come pre-subbed and even pre-segged. It’s easy to see when they are AI subs because AI can’t/won’t use correct gender in most cases. They also don’t add exclamation point or question mark etc., and if we have a ‘‘bad English editor’’ in the drama ‘‘fixing’’ these terrible subtitles 80% of they time it never happens, and they stay as they come, and the EDITOR just adds a period at the end of the sentence, and in some cases change one or two words leaving a low quality subtitle for viewers to read.

I think the best solution is to create a BLOCKING system where the person is blocked from working as CM in more than 3 dramas/movies OR people working as Moderator should only pick in a drama ONE language as Moderator, and can also be allowed to sub in that same language BUT NOT in any different language they may know.

I know it can be done, and this will open a more FAIR opportunity for other volunteers to be able to work here at RVIKI, and even provide better quality work for viewers to enjoy since I see the main complain here is that some people are providing very poor quality in their Language. When it comes to EDITING they need to be blocked from working in so many dramas/shows like I see some people do in here. I saw several editors here editing about 3 dramas (Chinese/Japanese/ Korean), and they had more editing work to do in 1 or 2 movies. I couldn’t understand how that was humanly possible, but if you look around their projects you can see these facts.

The main thing here is to get to the bottom of WHY some people get to be constantly ‘‘picked’’ as a CM, and others qualify and willing to do the work; NEVER get to be ‘‘picked’’ as CM. I remember way, way, way back I used to apply and was NEVER chosen as CM although I have the qualifications to do so (my new page doesn’t reflect my Gold QC status I had before I deleted my account). I was one of the BLACKLISTED by the control group we have here. I know for a fact this is real and happening for any given Language.

mirjam_465
In reality, though, we have tons of people who are very well capable of being CM, but don’t get the chance anymore because of that handful of serial CMs.

They really need to investigate those handful serial of CM’s, and work on stopping/blocking them ASAP.

59

I don’t think any “investigation” is needed to find out why some people never get a chance to be CMs, while others manage to get multiple projects per year. Last year, I created a database to track who gets what projects and who are the most… shall we say… prolific CMs. These things are well documented on this site, everybody has access to this info. If I wanted to dig deeper (but I also have a life, so no, I won’t) you could also collect info on all their networks to see how they, along with their buddies, effectively “hog” most projects here at Viki. Based on these facts and data, I think the likeliest explanation is that there is no-one reading those CM applications. Who would have time to read 180 applications? A company that doesn’t care about subtitle quality will not care about CM applications either. Time is money, so they just give it to one of those tried and tested individuals who they know will do the job in an inhumane amount of time with machine translation (of course, they’ll pretend they don’t know it’s machine translation). As the saying goes, ‘the fish rots from the head.’ This system has been developed and maintained by Viki, either through conscious intention or negligence or some combination of the two.

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60

This is unfortunate. I do communicate with Hungarian viewers from my subber profile on social media and keep them updated about my ongoing subbing projects. If you communicate and explain things, people are actually very understanding. What is frustrating for them is when they don’t know why subbing has seemingly stopped on a show. Some people care about subtitle quality, some don’t, that’s for sure. I’m not sure about the proportions, as the Hungarian viewers I have contact with via social media are extremely wary of criticizing translations, fearing backlash from AI warriors who tend to block them if they dare mention that the emperor has no clothes. So for this reason, it’s difficult to gauge viewers’ opinions.

One more thing to add here that we have often discussed with my fellow subbers. If Viki is inundated with machine translation, it will be very difficult for us to “sell” Viki to Hungarian viewers. Because I can’t say the subs are good. Because in many cases, no, they aren’t at all. I’ve come across all kinds of things on Viki: subs where English and Hungarian are mixed, or full English (pretending to be Hungarian), or where in the first line there is an English sentence, and in the line below there is a Hungarian sentence which has nothing to do with the English sentence… OK, this is a somewhat extreme example that nevertheless exists on Viki. Most translations are just good old GT.

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61

It would be interesting to evaluate the growth or decline curve of the Viki company. Being a company manager does not mean being a genius, otherwise there would be no companies that fail. So there are two things: 1. the average Viki viewer is extremely good-natured and continues to pay even for poor quality products (which I think is very likely: I myself see the Viki series on my laptop subtitled in English with automatic translation of the page); 2. the company loses spectators from year to year and the management thinks of taking action by increasing the speed at the expense of quality.

Let us not forget that Viki sells series segmented and subtitled by fans to ■■■■■■■, for which perhaps there is greater attention or ■■■■■■■ simply has them edited.

I read (Viki statistics) that there are 160,000 contributors; let us assume that only half are active, 80,000; let us assume that 40,000 of them abandon contributioning due to manifest injustice in the assignments; there are still 40,000 people working for free for a product that is then sold to 53 million users and other platforms (https://www.adweek.com/convergent-tv/rakuten-asian-media-streamer-viki-double-digit-increase/#:~:text=Rakuten’s%20Asian%20Media%20Streamer%20Viki%20Sees%20Registered%20Users%20Increase%20to%2053%20Million).

I think this is why Viki management is completely uninterested in the quality of translations.

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<<“In experimenting to see what worked and what didn’t,” says Mariliam Semidey, 37, who served as Viki’s senior manager of customer and community experience from July 2016 to June 2021, “we might’ve made some mistakes.” Time and time again while Semidey worked there, the question came up during corporate meetings: Should Viki get rid of its volunteers?>>

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63

I may have used for you the wrong word as ‘‘investigation,’’ but ironically you did just what I wanted to be done, and I don’t know… what word you would have used? I could also call it research; which you did a fantastic job for what I read so far, but sadly you stopped at the good part. I wished someone cared enough to stop these unfair distribution of volunteer work by exposing the systematic way they ‘‘hog’’ projects.

By breaking these unfair pattern of behavior that has been so prevalent for so many years here at Rviki, and by as I suggested making a ‘‘blocking’’ system that can prevent ANYONE from ‘‘hogging’’ projects, we can finally have a fair distribution of volunteer/paid work for ALL/EVERYONE that is willing, and practically begging to be given a chance to offer their great services as volunteers.

The Quality of the subtitles will be maximize in high volumes without ever sacrificing ‘‘Quantity’’ (speed of services) since better qualified volunteers will be able to work at a faster rate of time; unlike SOME of these hoggers that mainly work with translation tools that requires working ‘‘extra time’’ slowing down the availability of the subtitle in the drama/movie etc., frustrating the viewers, and taking away the chance of acquiring more paying subscribers since they would be much more satisfied with the improved quality in translations in any OL.

nectarine_tart
This system has been developed and maintained by Viki, either through conscious intention or negligence or some combination of the two.

That’s when I realized that ‘‘viki’’ is run and ruled by the controlling group we have here, and NOTHING will ever be done to change these SO unfair practices. Now I know why they talk about ‘‘viki’’ like ''its a ‘‘friend’’ a ‘‘she’’ ‘‘their buddy’’ bc that ‘‘viki’’ ‘‘have their back covered.’’

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64

I think they need to get rid of the contribution count reward method that makes some volunteers ‘‘greedy’’ for numbers, and they want to ‘‘hog’’ as much as they can, to get those numbers up. They resort to creating control groups that ‘‘hog’’ most of the work done by their ‘‘buddy system.’’

They need to realize that SOME paid subbers although may be ‘‘faster’’ workers; not all of them are providing quality work in their subs. They need to concentrate on HOW to provide Quality and Quantity work at the same time by creating a system that don’t keep abusers/translation tools users For ALL of their translation working as volunteers. Those type of volunteers are not productive for this site.

WE are Human and we might need to use a translation tool for a word or two, but if they don’t know the Language proficient enough they have no business offering a volunteer work that will lack quality, and will affect quantity since is time consuming.

Getting rid of volunteers won’t solve the problem because some PAID subbers have given crappy work here too. I have seen some subtitles that paid subbers have done, and they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to Quality work. AI? GOD forbid they grow on that idea since they will make the biggest mistake of their life since AI subtitles in my opinion are the worst ones to have in dramas/movies (unless we have great honest editors that know the OL proficient enough to provide the viewer great quality editing).

When RVIKI allowed controlling groups of volunteers (paid/non paid), to close/stop the availability of having more qualified volunteers to be able to work here at RVIKi: THAT’S when they need to rethink; WHERE did Viki go wrong when implementing the volunteer program? Who is the main culprit here? IN my opinion the ‘‘hoggers’’ that have taken ‘‘control here’’ like they ‘‘own’’ the place.

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65

I think they’re understaffed. We’ve seen a lot of Viki employees leave and not be replaced. If it’s not that, then it’s just laziness.
In any case, Viki doesn’t keep its promises. Once again, they don’t respect their own guidelines. We’re becoming more and more of a closed community and Viki is only interested in taking advantage of us. We used to have a reputation for having the best subtitles, but that’s no longer the case.

Translating from English has become difficult, with subtitles that make no sense. I don’t understand why the episodes are being released when the English edition is clearly not finished. Nor do I understand the point of making viewers read incorrect subtitles.

People are never satisfied anyway. They’re the loudest, but I don’t think they represent the vast majority.
Viki chooses to listen to those who pay a subscription as if the work of volunteers didn’t make money or attract subscribers. :roll_eyes:

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66

Viki asks this from CMs. They tell them not to have a TE (without whom even the best English editor, if s/he doesn’t know the source language, risks leaving mistakes in meaning), the role of the GE is all but gone and very often not even a CE is allowed!
And when they do allow you a CE, they tell you to release to other languages immediately as soon as the subtitles are translated, before the CE starts working. (Sometimes it happens that not even segment Quality Control is allowed!) If the English editor is quick enough, the editing will be done while the translation in other languages gets done. The translators may not have the best version, but by the time the OL editor comes, the English edition will also be complete. Therefore there can still be a good outcome in a short time.
The viewers often don’t care for excellent subtitles, they just want to know what happened in their favourite series. Even before, when we had proper TE, GE and CE, they often chose not to wait, they watched right away, and even when it was only partly translated and missing pieces here and there!

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67

I think the CM could be selected using a simple algorithm that would collect important/pertintent data from each applicant’s background in an easily digestible form. This could include factors such as experience, when they were CM for the last time, how many parallel projects they have (including editor, moderator, subber, segger) with preference for people who seem to have more free capacity, and prioritizing a healthy rotation of capable individuals. There should be maybe a quota for newbies who will be assisted by more experience co-CMs?

My point is that if they don’t have staff for this, this could be done by a program and Viki staff would just need to check if what the program comes up with is OK.

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