Translation Editor Role and Reward Released

[lyla]

Since you quoted me, I’ll share a few thoughts.

@xylune

This is to increase the amount of TEs since they are actually a rare species.

I am aware of that fact and that’s why I’ve said this before:

@lyla

Is someone out there coming to Viki as TE just to earn an extra point for every segment they edit? Does someone believe that? Is the prize for such hard work good enough to attract the needed TE’s? I really doubt it.

Besides, don’t you think the fact TE’s are

@xylune

actually a rare species.

is the reason why, according to what you’ve said, they

@xylune

Can’t be compared to CEs jumping projects just to be the CE.

?

If we had here as much TE’s as CE’s wouldn’t they be “jumping projects”, as you said, “just to be” TE?

Well, is it only my own impression or CE’s are not that many and that’s why the NSSA ENG school is coming, for training properly Editors for all tiers?

By the way, do you think your comment regarding CE’s is a fair one? I think not, but each of us are entitled to have our own opinions.

–

And the reason why

@lyla

I think the two point system should be abolished.

is for the fact that

@xylune

Anyway, if I get double contributions as an English TE only I will not endanger the leaderboard unless I do OL work or take up tons of projects.

I don’t agree with those new rewards, which as you said very well

@xylune

no TE asked for it either.

specially for avoiding hoarding projects/abuse of the system (I’ve also said that on my previous post).

Putting aside the fact that giving two points for TE’s only, forgetting all remaining Editors, is too unfair.

Finally, because I know each Editor is equally important, because each of them do their specific task on their tier, I fully agree with your statement:

@xylune

I am against the special treatment

Which was my point since the very beginning. It can be seen on the lines I wrote, even though I didn’t say explicitly: “I’m against it!”, but was that really necessary? From the content I think not. We read between the lines, thankfully.

[lapagemj]

Here is why OL editors should get rewarded. I do edition in French. When I’m editing, I sometimes spend 30 to 45 minutes on one part and get 20, 25 contributions. If I translate, in the same time, I will get 150 contributions. I don’t really care about rewards in fact, so I do it anyways because ol editing is highly underrated. For me it as important as translating and we need people to do it. If increasing the reward make people want to edit than it’s worth it.

[lyla]

I know what is like. Even tough I don’t agree with the extra point system because, for my two communities, it won’t bring extra help for editing. On the contrary, it’s more likely that hoarding projects by some is going to happen, but I empathize with you.

I know what is like spending so much time and gaining just a few few points comparing with the time and effort you applied. That’s why I know how important every Editor is.

[lyla]

Dear all,

After voicing out my thoughts, I want to share this, as a small reminder:

It’d be sad if Viki community would be a black and white space where we only could be like these ones:

Those who do not think like me, definitely, are not against me. We grow and interact on better environments by being and thinking differently, not alike.

[xylune]

@lapagemj

Here is why OL editors should get rewarded. I do edition in French. When I’m editing, I sometimes spend 30 to 45 minutes on one part and get 20, 25 contributions. If I translate, in the same time, I will get 150 contributions. I don’t really care about rewards in fact, so I do it anyways because ol editing is highly underrated. For me it as important as translating, and we need people to do it. If increasing the reward make people want to edit than it’s worth it.

I do OL moderation, which is 20-30min of preparation per episode without a single contribution. For proper editing, you might gain around 100 contributions per episode. Translation Editing results in similar numbers. Certainly, not caring or delaying editing for OL especially is a thing, I will not deny it. However, it’s the result of striving for new projects all the time. Some people participate in 15 projects, moderate another 5 and have an endless pile of unedited projects. This can be criticized and is worth mentioning it, but there is no perfect solution to it, especially if you’re not doing Spanish where they have x editors per project and a lot of competition regarding the project distribution. Medium-sized languages such as German have a growing list of untranslated / semi-translated projects, and other people consider it an amazing idea to grab 3+ projects and sit on them like a dragon on its treasure for a year or two. This behavior as well leads to moderators thinking they should rather apply than waiting for a better time or until they took care of some old, translated project. There are issues everywhere, but even if they are addressed, those involved may not reconsider their own behavior for one reason or another. I just want to point out that it takes some time to point out all the aspects. Another reason might be “solo translators” that often have issues completing a project (in time) or in some cases don’t necessarily meet the standards. All of this may lead to criticizable behavior, but how can this be changed in the first place?!
The CMs don’t have any good reason in accordance with the guidelines either to reject moderators if they meet the requirements. Even if you know they are doing it alone or that they may lack experience. You can request them to find a Co-Mod or to meet certain “goals”, but a semi-translated project that’s abandoned will likely not be completed anytime soon.

Generally speaking, being superficial is something you’ll stumble upon many times on Viki. Ranging from superficial English editing to superficial general editing and superficial “CVs” that mainly show you how much a person didn’t participate in certain projects assigned to them. Anyway, this is probably over the top here.

While many older projects were edited so far, there are still some around that provide a quality that can’t be watched at all. But doubling contributions for editors will result in doubling contributions for subtitlers. If anything, I’d rather say it’s worth having temporary events that reward editing for example and focus on putting this step into the center of attention.

@lyla

If we had here as much TE’s as CE’s wouldn’t they be “jumping projects”, as you said, “just to be” TE?

I don’t think the first question requires a reply, and I rather consider it a rhetorical question. As you may know, it’s common to ask the TE to join instead of them asking you. However, it’s doubtful that being a TE is that attractive in the first place. Instead, it’s usually a story about being encouraged that you can actually do this. Becoming a CE is more about being confident that you can pull it off. Certainly, you can argue that CEs have a hard job meeting all these deadlines, and sometimes it’s rather like another full-time job. If those few people decide to only invest 3 hours per week into Viki we would have issues with the amount of CEs. But I would rather compare the motivation to be a CE to the motivation you have as an OL moderator. It differs in my opinion. However, I won’t say that you can’t admire them for their determination and efforts.

In fact, it’s not that easy to voice my personal opinion in that regard, I did some English editing in all roles, I did OL moderation… and you’re often confronted with the English team’s work. Sometimes everyone put in lots of efforts, sometimes you will notice issues regarding the quality or the speed (which isn’t that much of an issue nowadays since most dramas are released after QC for further translation). How they react to your reports or how one of your fellow language moderators is stuck for years in the same project. There’s light and shadow, so it’s a good thing to have another couple of reliable and qualified editors in the future (edited to avoid misunderstandings).

@lyla

but was that really necessary?

I use quotes to point out my opinion, quoting people doesn’t mean that I disagree with everything or that I wanted to sum up a couple of posts. I just explain why I think that the whole reward matter should just be dropped instead of discussing and highlighting the importance of whatever Viki role.
Discussions are just discussions. It’s not a personal vendetta or anything. While I didn’t agree on some points discussed above prior to my last post, I decided not to address them.

[ilmatar]

@xylune

Can’t be compared to CEs jumping projects just to be the CE.

Where is this negative idea coming from? We work very hard.

[xylune]

@ilmatar

Where is this negative idea coming from? We work very hard.

Out of your mind interpreting my sentence, I guess. I don’t think that the following part contradicts the statement that CEs are (often) hardworking people:

@xylune

I don’t think the first question requires a reply, and I rather consider it a rhetorical question. As you may know, it’s common to ask the TE to join instead of them asking you. However, it’s doubtful that being a TE is that attractive in the first place. Instead, it’s usually a story about being encouraged that you can actually do this. Becoming a CE is more about being confident that you can pull it off. Certainly, you can argue that CEs have a hard job meeting all these deadlines, and sometimes it’s rather like another full-time job. If those few people decide to only invest 3 hours per week into Viki we would have issues with the amount of CEs. But I would rather compare the motivation to be a CE to the motivation you have as an OL moderator. It differs in my opinion. However, I won’t say that you can’t admire them for their determination and efforts.

However, basically the sentence just means to point out that people are applying as CEs by themselves usually compared to the fact, that you often have to contact TEs directly to recruit them. Furthermore, there are some management aspects.

[lyla]

Let’s hope things improve very soon (going back to normal would be great).

Have a lovely day/night!

/

[ilmatar]

@xylune

However, basically the sentence just means to point out that people are applying as CEs by themselves

Oh, I thought you meant that CEs jump from show to show, not doing much, just to be known as the CE. Sorry I misunderstood you.

@xylune

are applying as CEs by themselves

I think the well-known CEs often get asked.

[xylune]

@ilmatar

Oh, I thought you meant that CEs jump from show to show, not doing much, just to be known as the CE. Sorry I misunderstood you.

No worries, it sounded a bit flippant, I suppose. If you work on few projects, you may have some time to check everything a few times. The more projects there are, the harder it gets, unless you invest way more time. When I started editing, I checked every episode twice. At one point, that became difficult. Still, some people even want editors to watch the whole episode while editing. While I agree there are advantages, I think it’s hard to manage, especially if you have multiple projects. In the end, I have to keep questioning myself if I can meet the requirements (and my own expectations) or not, it’s truly challenging. I think it’s great they removed some pressure which led to having more classical teams instead of having one CE by themselves. So increasing the numbers is crucial to keep this sort of quality assurance.

@ilmatar

I think the well-known CEs often get asked.

To some extent, yes. But many CEs I know really apply, at least in case of dramas. Movies might be different.

[ajumma2]

@gonghina

Then, I decided to add myself as translator and TE and I noticed that I gained 2 points by creating the sub by scratch. I thought we should earn two points just by editing the subtitle but it’s not like that.
Did you notice this?

@mirjam_465

Isn’t this just logical? English TEs also have to fill in empty segments where needed.

@gonghina

So, if I put myself as OL TE and translator and I start subbing an entire drama I’ll earn two points for each sub. No, for me it’s not logical.
And when they fill a gap, they should earn 1 point, not 2!

@mirjam_465

Oh, by the way, for English TEs, it will always be an edit. Empty segments don’t exist anymore in English and Portuguese. The segmenters have to fill up every segment they create so when the TE comes in, it’s technically an edit.

Traditionally, the reason an English TE would be filling in an empty seg is because that particular segment was too hard for a regular subber to translate. A lot of regular subbers are 100% fluent and they are only able to sub as much as they can, and leave the difficult sections to other fluent subbers, who are usually TE’s, but not necessarily. Some other fluent subber could come in later to fill in the rest. So, the bottom line is when a TE fills in an empty seg, it usually takes more time and effort to translate that particular line, because all the easy lines have already been filled in. It’s a moot point anyway for English TEs since there will be no empty segs anymore.
But I can see how this could be problematic for OL TEs.

[bepina]

Of course dear,
TE is the editor
GE is English Moderator
CE and CS is All.

[iashley]

I think there’s an update to this article on TE here: https://contributorhelp.viki.com/hc/en-us/articles/18460050460819-What-is-a-Translation-Editor-TE

There’s some more official information, and I think it’s new. I literally just noticed it a moment ago, so I thought I would share.

[bozoli]

Some of the main responsibilities of a Translation Editor are:

1. Editing a translation/cultural reference within a subtitle to better capture the meaning in that language.
2. Editing a subtitle to add cultural reference or cultural notes, as needed.
3. Editing a subtitle to provide a more accurate translation of an idiom in that language.
4. Editing a subtitle to provide a correct translation of a slang term/reference in that language.
5. Editing a subtitle for fluency so it sounds natural in that language.
6. Editing a subtitle for consistency across all names, terms, rituals, and customs.
7. Researching cultural references and verifying the original Asian language meaning so the above translation editing can be done.

Am I totally off, or are the points 5 and 6 the responsibility of the English GE? Better not get OL editors involved in this explanation or else things will get chaotic, since every language (and every team in it) has their own rules on roles in the team.

All in all, too much thought has been placed on “cultural references” and not enough on “accuracy”.

[dimghro]

@vikicommunity Why are you so keen on keeping the TE role for OL? What’s the purpose?

If there are OL claiming they are doing TE, that is just their belief and they just want the double point. I’m also an OL editor for a long time already and there is no such thing as a TE for me. Sure, I do something that can be labeled as TE tasks here and there but it’s absolutely untrue that I do the TE’s job and I should have a role for this.

Let’s talk a bit about the new guidelines of the TE role:

A Translation Editor (TE) is one of three types of Editors on Viki, along with the Chief Editor (CE) and General Editor (GE).

The TE ensures the translation is accurate and retains the same meaning from:

• The original Asian source language to English.
• English to other languages.

This one is contradictory: TE is an EN role but you also say it should be used for EN to OL.

• Editing a translation/cultural reference within a subtitle to better capture the meaning in that language.
• Editing a subtitle to add cultural reference or cultural notes, as needed.
• Editing a subtitle to provide a more accurate translation of an idiom in that language.
• Editing a subtitle to provide a correct translation of a slang term/reference in that language.
• Editing a subtitle for fluency so it sounds natural in that language.
• Editing a subtitle for consistency across all names, terms, rituals, and customs.
• Researching cultural references and verifying the original Asian language meaning so the above translation editing can be done.

These are a must for any OL subber. So you basically say now that any OL subber is right from the start a TE. And let’s not forget that you don’t control at all the quality of OL contributors. So how can you make sure that each OL subber is capable of doing all these tasks and they are entitled for the OL TE role?

Even though translation editing has not been traditionally acknowledged as applying across all languages, it is being done in all languages and thus all should be included whenever translation editing is discussed. Ensuring proper context, understanding, and cultural references across languages is essential and a responsibility shared by Editors in all languages.

You are in the impossibility of proving this for all the languages. You can do it for EN only. So right now we may have many abusers… who knows?

Who can be assigned a TE role?

• Any qualified Contributor (QC) doing translation editing from source Asian language to English.
• Any qualified Contributor (QC) doing translation editing from English to another language (e.g. Spanish, French, German, etc).
• Any qualified Contributor doing translation editing from English to their pre-subtitled language (eg. Portuguese).

Not sure about the last point since the PT editors don’t know the Asian language and if there is no TE done on the EN pre-subs, respectively on PT pre-subs, how a PT editor can know the cultural aspects to make sure they include them in the final PT subs? This one is a bit tricky. It could be okay if there are TEs in the EN team so it’s clear that the subs will be worked by them to provide the OL with a much better cultural approach than the pre-subs.

For language teams other than English where an “all in Editor one” approach may be in use (e.g. one person is playing multiple Editor roles) the TE role may be used for that one individual if they are doing translation editing. If you are an other language team doing subtitling and translation editing at the same time, please use the guideline of whether an individual will be doing translation editing when deciding whether or not to assign a TE role.

This one is quite unclear to me. I understand the first part that if one is doing all the editing on a channel (like I do) they should have the TE role, but the rest of it it’s confusing.

Please note this is not the final iteration of the Editor roles. We will be working to further address the inefficiencies of the systems and in the meantime encourage you to adopt this role while we’re finessing how everything works.

You encourage the abuse of the new role. I already saw this happening.

A final reminder that translation editing does not mean checking for grammar accuracy, correcting typos, or adding line breaks. This applies to all languages, including English. If you are doing this kind of editing, we ask that you please use the general Editor role.

This is actually what an OL editor is doing most of the time so with your own words you cancel the false need of having the TE role for OL.

Still nothing clear about those being both subber and editor at the same time. Right now they get double points for creating subs, right?

[dimghro]

Also, meanwhile, I realized something: the contribution system is becoming irrelevant since double points on the subbing/editing part do not reflect anymore the exact amount of subs and edits but how active one is and maybe not even this. And let’s not forget that you can’t control what an OL TE is doing on the channel. Their most activity is about what you mentioned here:

A final reminder that translation editing does not mean checking for grammar accuracy, correcting typos, or adding line breaks. This applies to all languages, including English. If you are doing this kind of editing, we ask that you please use the general Editor role.

@vikicommunity Have you ever thought about making the contribution count something personal? Why not make it private and this way eliminate any race and feuds based on this count which is already becoming more and more irrelevant and imprecise? Like we have now the slots.

[bozoli]

@dimghro

I understand the first part that if one is doing all the editing on a channel (like I do) they should have the TE role, but the rest of it it’s confusing.

I understood this was referring to solo mods. If so, why just not write it as such? Simplify. What are they actually saying here?

[bozoli]

About the so-called TE role in other languages…

Viki, please stop creating artificial roles in other languages just because your system doesn’t allow you to limit the new roles to English.

If needed, this community can limit this role to English only by CMs manually controlling/removing the TE role in OLs.

So please don’t create roles on your own and say to us “well, now that we can’t do this properly, you figure out how you are going to use the role”.

[dimghro]

@vikicommunity Sorry for tagging you again but there are many problems with this role.

I was just chatting with someone and they mentioned the Subathon, which probably is going to be soon this fall. How are you going to deal with it and this double-rewarded role?

We have contributors who will continue with the normal Language Editor role and we already have contributors using the new OL TE role. I am sure some contributors edit much more than others but just because others use the new OL TE role they get more contributions. Will be this fair in a Subathon? Do I have to use the new OL TE role for the Subathon just to not feel the unfairness that you created? Asking about it because this situation is already a reality on Viki.

Also, how do you plan to deal with the abusive practices? Because I’m sure some are going to find the time and the pretexts to ”edit” more for the Subathon.

Also, how about those who are most of the time both subber and editor at the same time? Like me and many others from small and medium communities.

I know that it may be technically complicated to remove the role or to add some limitations so maybe the best solution will be to just decrease the reward to just 1 contribution per edit. You just need to change a value in the code.

[lyla]

Dear @vikicommunity,

It’s sad to see all of us who claimed that it was an unfair system for subbers and, very specially, for all of our remaining Editors is finally showing through facts - such as the coming Subathon.

Please, do set things straight and build a fairer Viki for everyone by downgrading the two-point system.

Thank you so much for reading me!