Was sind dann ungelegte Eier in jeder Sprache
I think you would enjoy the conversation about “Blind idiot translations”. It is pertinent since it involves both machine translation and translations by idiotic subbers who think like machines, putting their grey matter in a closet with naphthaline. Contributors to the discussion (including @lutra) made some hilarious examples.
Excerpt from tvtropes.org, a really funny and interesting website that I recommend:
A “Blind Idiot” Translation is a translation from one language to another where the translation is overly literal, grammatically incorrect, very awkward, or clearly misses what the word or phrase was supposed to mean. If a translation is complete gibberish, it is a Translation Train Wreck. Sometimes overlaps with Gratuitous Foreign Language.
Actually “blind idiot” translation is another thing.
The name is not intended to be an insult against the translator (although it works just as well that way), hence the quotation marks: “blind idiot” is a Recursive Translation of the old saying “out of sight, out of mind”. A computer in a lab was running a beta of some translation software package and translated “out of sight, out of mind”—meaning “if you hide something, sometimes people forget that it existed in the first place”—into Chinese and back to English, and the printout read “invisible idiot”, which mutated further into “blind idiot”.
So it usually means a back and forth translation English-other language-English by an unskilled person.
I hugged her nicely from you
Sehr gern Lutra Danke aber nicht, das ich dir dann auf den Wecker fall
Kennt ihr noch alle die “stille Post”? Wenn nicht, kurze Erklärung
Das ist ein Spiel aus meiner Jugend.
3 bis sagen wir mal 6 Mitspieler ( nach oben hin offen) der erste flüstert dem 2ten einen Satz ins Ohr, dieser flüstert es dem nächsten ins Ohr usw… Der letzte muss laut sagen, was der erste flüsterte, wir haben uns immer halb Tod gelacht, weil es nie richtig war, spätestens beim dritten kam es schon verkehrt an…
Übersetzer Maschinen ähneln doch der stillen Post, weil es viel zu aufwendig ist, und einzelne Worte ( die vielleicht unbewusst sehr wichtig sind) ihre Bedeutung verlieren können und das in sämtlichen Sprachen das allein wäre schon sehr traurig…
Der Vergleich ist echt gut
Then oranges fit less as example than pears somehow. When/why was the reason that the saying was changed from oranges to pears?
Why doesn’t Viki get their subs from Subscene like few free sites that are always far ahead of Viki Rakuten in episodes and eng subbing? Or, since you ‘charge’ for memberships and have a cash flow through numerous ads, “hire” competent translators proficient and educated in two or more languages. That way the eng sub won’t become a hot mess of urban slang in historical dramas. These issues are known facts about Viki. Also, the reason I dropped 3 memberships over the years here. It just doesn’t get better while other sites, including YouTube, has advanced far ahead.
You might need to send that question to the UK @ninjas_with_onions
I don’t know if in the English language it was always apples and oranges or if there ever was the apples and pears comparison.
I still use apples and oranges. Wasn’t aware that it’s changed to pears. The only time I’ve come across those two fruits appearing together is ‘apples and pears’ is Cockney rhyming slang for ‘stairs’ and slang is definitely not something to translate to!
It’s not “changed” to pears, it’s just different per area. In European French it’s pears, in Canadian French it’s oranges. Some compare bananas with oranges, others compare grandmothers with toads …
Some excellent examples, some of which I had to read a few times to fully comprehend what was going on in the sentance.
I wholeheartedly agree, even if the A.I. were able to get to that first level of translation, I would still have to make a quick assessment of the importance of the subtitle, general chatter or plot progression? Any key words that might be like what evidence was found, where, by whom, who was being accused and why, etc. Continue or pause, comprehend what was being said, restart. To always having to make those snap decisions watching the show hovering over the pause button to press at a seconds notice. It would be so disruptive to the immersion afforded them with naturalised translations into their language by humans, the very thing that got them hooked to the show in the first place and clamouring for a more speedy subtitling of the next episodes!
It really will be adding auto translate to satisfy impatience to just enable show/plot progression (in such a disruptive fashion) that the quality is actually degraded to the point that it’s detrimental to the show.
Enabling the impatient viewer a few days earlier access is just not worth the trade off in the loss of quality and that sometimes the best answer to the screaming child is “No” as it will benefit them greatly in the long run.
We, as active Spanish team members of the volunteer community, appreciate the fact that you are letting us know about this “AI project” instead of implementing it without reading our opinion first. As you will understand, this comes after a very unfortunate turn of events or issues such as the vikibot, the inbox change, the project finder, etc. Things that have led our team members to a lack of trust towards these type of initiatives since none of these changes have brought any improvement to our community but have caused lots of trouble for the volunteers.
When we saw the post, we were taken aback because we thought that we (the Spanish community) had already conveyed our reasons last year regarding the controversial usage of the Vikibot. The issue we are confronted with today is of the same kind. We ought to not dehumanize the incredible feeling of reading authentic translations. At least in Spanish, we have so many variations that “one size fit all” tool would render the translations completely inaccurate. Gender indicators are a core part of many languages and cannot be ignored, a machine puts aside these conventional norms (pronouns exist for a reason, right?), especially in Romance languages.
We, as a team, have thought over the past few days about the cons and pros of this journey you propose. However, we agree that the negative effects that our moderators, our active subbers, and that our editors will have to face will be far greater than the positive aspects that we can see, at least, for now.
We are aware that a lot of the complaints about lack of subs come from the Spanish speaking fans, however, we also know that an important number of those understand English too, so once an episode is completed in English they also stop asking for subs. Some of us had the opportunity of being channel managers for a long time, so we have the experience in moderating timed comments and almost 80% of those who complain, do it within the first hours of the episode being uploaded. By now, most of us have gotten over the impact of complaints about this aspect, so it is not a pressure for us anymore.
What would be a pressure on us, will be to have on screen “poor quality subs” even if those are not created by us. We will have unmotivated subbers who may not find a reason to hurry up, stressed moderators because we want to get rid of the auto subs soon, and the pressure as a team will increase. We also don’t feel it is okay to auto translate the hard work of the English team just to calm down the whiners.
We know that Viki has to be competitive in the market in order to survive as a company, but that won’t happen by lowering the quality of the subtitles. This would be possible by emphasizing or making more known how this website is a community. Highlighting how different we are from the rest and what aspects make us unique, because we are. So, we are not agreeing in the way this wants to be accomplished even though we understand the goal.
If you want to start trying out this tool, we believe it is a horrible idea to start with any of the romance languages. In the case of Spanish, we must consider the formal or informal way of speaking between characters, we consider a neutral form of speaking because Spanish is spoken in so many countries that we have already set an agreement into which slang or idioms are not allowed to be used while subbing, or which curse words are allowed etc, etc. Our rules of subbing are such that we normally do a google document per drama to clear this out for this specific case. Other teams do not make a document but they clarify in each “Go” all the vocabulary, and how each character speaks to each other. So, to summarize this part, we put a lot of thinking into the dramas in different ways. Therefore, our teams create the Spanish subs with such love that we are indeed one of the fastest languages to get to 100% after the English team releases episodes, so why do we need this tool applied to the Spanish language then?
Moreover, developing a solely performance-oriented strategy can jeopardize the core of what our communities stand for. We are committed to do our best, doing an activity that we cherish in order to broaden our audience and share the thrill of discovering such fascinating dramas. Putting bots to replace humans will deteriorate the atmosphere in which we work because human contact is essential to humanize the possibly cold virtual world. For these concerning reasons, we wish to advise you to think twice before taking major decisions in that direction. We thank you for the post, giving us an opportunity to voice our views and contribute to a project that we value greatly. From all the community, we wish to echo once more our will to find ways to work better together. What makes Viki special is its community, composed of many members that put effort, time and commitment in addition to their personal and professional responsibilities. That generosity is something that may not be measurable quantitatively at a first glance but that on the long term sustains the foundation on which Viki was built on. Once this is lost there is no turning back, therefore it calls for caution.
Something that could be done is not releasing new episodes until they are fully subtitled in English. And, as other legal sites do, establishing a releasing date in the app and website so viewers know when exactly the episodes are available in each language. In this case, the episode will be visible only from the editor to the added team in the channel and volunteers could work without pressure and the viewers could watch on an expected date without feeling “cheated” because they think that episodes come with subtitles and they don´t.
Thanks for your attention, time and concern,
Rumble95, Pilar_velasquez, Kalmendarez, Eun_soo_lee_2, Sita24, Miss_rochester, Klore6, Wendy_gutia, Henrri_11, Niennavalar.
I just got an idea. Instead of using AI for the subtitles, we might use it for the comment section!
Something like this:
Each time a commenter types a word like “subtitle” (in any language, abbreviation, synonym, whatever), he/she is disabled from sending the message and instead a pop-up shows up, in which Viki clearly explains how our subbing system works.
I think that this might be useful for dramas where the subbing has been stopped for a few years…other than that, I agree with most people here that it’s not the best idea.
Say, there are a few Taiwanese dramas and older dramas where the subbing has stopped or the subtitles are incomplete in a few of the episodes (English and otherwise), this would be a good alternative until the moderator or channel manager gets back to the drama. A few examples:
This last drama is used for subbing and segmenting practice. Because the subs aren’t finished on this drama, I can’t watch it, but with the automatic translation (assuming that it would be used for Mandarin to English translation) I would be able to watch it, and the volunteers can work on subbing practice. (I probably wouldn’t be able to watch it anyways since the segging for the English subtitles probably isn’t finished).
This brings me to the question: does the automatic translation also make segments?
I just checked and none of them are available in my area … So no subbers from this part of the world.
But either way, I think Viki should at the very least ask whether any of us is interested in working on such dramas before even considering handing it over to an AI agent. And even then I wouldn’t watch those shows or maybe learn Chinese first, so that I could turn off the subs.
I should hope not! I think in theory it’s possible, but … leads to all kinds of horror. But the segmenters have more insight in that than I do.
They aren’t available in my area either Some, I would like to watch, but because of the unavailability and the uncompleted subs, I wouldn’t be able to watch them either way.
Now that you mention it…yes, it can be a problem. I have run into this while translating in Spanish. Because the English sentence is split up and the sentence structure is different in Spanish, I’ve had to completely reverse the sentence in Spanish in order for the sentence to make sense. I wonder if the automatic translation would be able to 1). segment the sentence properly for the auto subs and 2). accurately construct the sentence instead of directly translating.
I don’t think so, as they said:
So the segments must already be in place. I do know that some of the dramas come pre-segmented and that we get asked to adjust and combine the segments. This used to be a horrible task in the past because the segments were horrible, but they have gotten better at it. Still requires a lot of time and effort to fix them.
True, but then the segmenters can’t practice
We’ll need a little more filters for this if it gets implemented.
Some viewers also cheer up the teams and that can get blocked too!
Such as “Thanks XYZ Team for fast subs.”
I support @mirjam_465’s idea with a little bit more filters.
Or we can have one more Moderator from the volunteers or the office, to whom all the comments are sent which have “subtitles” in them and they can approve it or maybe mine is just a bad idea 🤷
Some time ago I was doing some Google Translation tests with a friends who started to learn another language (that I once learnt but aren’t fluent anymore in building more complex own sentences) and he wanted to know the sentence I said in my language for this other language… So the result was that when I used a natural sentence for my language (in which you can use different word order but still keep the meaning) Google T wasn’t able to catch that true meaning. The Google translation created a different meaning… only after rearranging the sentence in my language into a word order that is more ‘common’ and in the way how the word order for this other language is, Google was able to translate it correctly…
One could only say that without editing that might happen with human translators as well. I just saw it today while I was editing a scene but at least the meaning was mostly correct although the syntax wasn’t.