Viki Wants Releases Before English Editing

[mirjam_465]

@angelight313_941

you are telling me… is not right?

I am telling you that it is far from right that Viki is choosing the exact same people as channel managers over and over and over again, while other hard-working, capable, experienced volunteers get no more chance whatsoever.

@angelight313_941

The QUIZ will have a fairly amount of time definitely not 15 minutes. When I say timed Quiz is only to rule out a person who also depends on Translators to add subtitles in the testing.

What is your idea of a fair amount of time?

@angelight313_941

Allowing their ‘‘favorites only’’ to work in those dramas when they knew these volunteers were not proficient enough in the English language; was the main root of this problem.

That just leads to bad subtitles, not necessarily to delayed subtitles. In fact, the less capable an editor is, the less they will correct so they are usually done way earlier than the good editors.

@angelight313_941

I feel that nervousness will only be an issue; if you/the person taking the QUIZ is not proficient enough in the English language because even if you need to check in any translator tools, it would be for 1 or 2 words, and not the whole sentence/subtitle, that’s nothing to be nervous about if we are confident enough you know your proficiency in the language (in this case would be: English).

No, seeing that timer while you’re supposed to solve a question distracts and makes you nervous. It’s a very bad way to test someone’s real skills.

@angelight313_941

I don’t like to judge anyone, but in the past newbies became abusers and liars

We will always have those, but should we, in order to keep them out, really block the way for potentially sincere newbies?

@angelight313_941

There has been a few posting where they make so many mistakes in the language they say they are so good at, and in the past, you would see them right away working in dramas/movies/shows. I don’t know how or why, but they did.

Viki could start by making the sample videos available for all languages.

[angelight313_941]

@mirjam_465

Viki could start by making the sample videos available for all languages.

YES! That idea would be better than a timed QUIZ since some people can do bad in the testing just bc of the pressure they would feel if they have to rush. I totally agree with you, but hopefully videos from other sources not dramas the volunteers might have worked on them. I was willing to design a QUIZ, but your suggestion is 100% better. Thanks!

mirjam_465
That just leads to bad subtitles, not necessarily to delayed subtitles.

The subtitles were delayed because they had to be edited, and you know editing takes long when the subtitles are a mess. They were mainly delayed bc in the past Spanish moderators would hog so many projects, and didn’t had the time to do any editing. When they finally started to add Editors in dramas, some were just as bad as the subber (I have evidence to prove this statement) since in the Spanish teams there is a ridiculous amount of controlling, they would keep as Editors no other than volunteers they knew; were not proficient enough to be doing any kind of ENGLISH editing work. We all know that dramas are not able to be released to other language until the English editing was completed so the Spanish subtitles were always delayed for those same reasons, and viewers would start complaining from left to right, non stop, requesting the Spanish Subtitles to be already in the dramas so they could watch them (since they didn’t know English too well).

mirjam_465
What is your idea of a fair amount of time?

It depends if I do the QUIZ in Essay questions. Essay questions are always harder to do because it requires a lot more writing and rules in grammar that need to be done right throughout the testing. Timing for multiple choice questions varies in the amount of questions in the Quiz. For example, a Quiz is always timed as 15 to 20 minutes for 50 easy questions, and for difficult questions about 30 minutes. That would be the most time I would give them; since these whiz computer kids can fool me with their answers by using AI methods. If by chance they do any plagiarism, I can manage to find out right away, but I’m an old timer, and when it comes to these new methods of modern cheating in testing; I’m at a big disadvantage because my LUPUS took away a lot from my memory retention, and other things that play an important role when it comes to testing those savvy innocent newbies.

mirjam_465
I am telling you that it is far from right that Viki is choosing the exact same people as channel managers over and over and over again, while other hard-working, capable, experienced volunteers get no more chance whatsoever.

But I’m confused because Channel Managers don’t do much when it comes to doing any subtitling or editing work; unless we are talking about the usual controlling group CM’s that are mainly working in every drama possible, and now keeping their own ‘‘favorite’’ people in their team, and leaving most good quality volunteers out. I hope the CEO’s are aware of this to be continuing going on in here, and how this was suppose to change, so good quality and quantity could go hand in hand into dramas.

[entwyfhasbeenfound]

@worthyromance, as the saying goes, I feel ya. I took a look at the Viki Facebook page earlier today. It made me shake my head. Again, I wonder why the @vikicommunity works so hard to shoot itself in the foot.

The Facebook page has to have admins and mods who read responses to posts about the next cool drama that’s going up on Viki. Those anonymous folks have got to know from the consistently negative responses about the current poor quality of subs that something needs to be done about their quality. Yet nobody who can definitively explain the Viki subbing process ever takes time to explain it OR offer fans the opportunity to join the subbing community.

So, in response to negative comments about the Viki drama Oasis that premiered two days ago . . .

I posted the following remarks (I have tweaked THOSE words that the Viki AI censor doesn’t like).

It’s good to remember that Viki has a different way of doing subs than other websites that stream K-dramas.

Subbing is done by volunteers, not by one translator. When K-dramas are licensed to Viki and a team of subbers starts the process that makes subs available in a wide variety of languages, the English-language subs that always come with each drama must be “cleaned” so that they read in a natural way.

After this cleaning takes place, then translations can be made by people who speak other languages.

The reason dramas licensed to Viki always come with English subs is that all subbers use English as a common language of communication. Without that, there could be no Viki.
I have worked “cleaning” Viki English-language subtitles for about four years now, and those of us who sub take great pride in our work.

Because of COVID’s effect world-wide, there are many fewer volunteer subtitlers than there were three years ago, but the demand for dramas of all kinds (Chinese, Korean, Filipino, Japanese, Taiwanese, Thai) continues to grow.

If you LOVE Viki as I do, and if you want to see more dramas with better subs, the Viki community, especially those responsible for creating subs, will welcome you with cries of joy.

How hard could it possibly be for the public relations department at Rakuten Viki to create truly good public relations with Viki fans?

What I wrote about subbing is, I think, fairly accurate; it took me twenty minutes to write; it is respectful; and it welcomes anyone to be a part of the subbing section of the Viki community who LOVES Asian dramas and wants to see LOTS of them with quality subs.

And I did with only my MA in Medieval English literature. I didn’t have to suck up to anybody, conduct endless surveys, or promise “rewards” for participation that never show up (I am still waiting for my gift card).

Common sense. All it would take to eliminate a lot of stress, anger, and confusion is simple, ordinary common sense.

(Giphy)

[ginafe]

I am Indonesian Moderator. I also hope OL can start translating right after TE. Let say until 96-98%. And than the OL editor can start working after Eng Sub officially release. So, we can satisfy both side to whom need fast or need quality.

[mirjam_465]

@angelight313_941

but hopefully videos from other sources not dramas the volunteers might have worked on them.

Yes, that would be better.

@angelight313_941

For example, a Quiz is always timed as 15 to 20 minutes for 50 easy questions, and for difficult questions about 30 minutes. That would be the most time I would give them; since these whiz computer kids can fool me with their answers by using AI methods.

Instead of timing them, give them something they can’t look up.

@angelight313_941

But I’m confused because Channel Managers don’t do much when it comes to doing any subtitling or editing work

How much they do is up to them. They are the ones who decide who gets into the team so they can also add themselves or anyone they want to.
But my point was that Viki, who chooses the CMs, ALWAYS chooses the same people nowadays. A minority of favorites is getting all the channels while the others get nothing. The balance has completely gone.

@ginafe

I am Indonesian Moderator. I also hope OL can start translating right after TE. Let say until 96-98%. And than the OL editor can start working after Eng Sub officially release. So, we can satisfy both side to whom need fast or need quality.

Viki wants OL to start right after the CS…

@ginafe

satisfy both side

There is nothing satisfying about this development. Which GE or CE would still be motivated in this setting? And which viewer in their right mind would be happy with the subs?

[teufelchen_netty_266]

And also every language needs an editor.
It’s not that easy in many aspects

[aznative]

I wanted to stop by and take a moment to say how much I appreciate the volunteer community. You encounter so many issues and work to find a solution.
Thank you, I appreciate you all so much.

[irmar]

@entwyfhasbeenfound

What I wrote about subbing is, I think, fairly accurate;

Sadly, it wasn’t exactly accurate.
You said “especially those responsible for creating subs”, meaning Ko-En, Chi-En, Jap-En subtitlers. But, no matter how warmly we welcome them, those people (as well as wannabe segmenters, hoping to get to work, after long months of training) can’t easily find work anymore, as so many dramas - the majority of new ones - now come pre-subbed and pre-segmented.

[angelight313_941]

I think it’s only fair that I add this here so people KNOW where I stand when it comes to ‘‘viki’s subtitles’’ QUALITY.

RAKUTENVIKI has one of the BEST SUBTITLES you can find on any site including in many ANY OL; due to the dedication and efforts of the many (free non paid) volunteers we have here adding the best translations in dramas, movies, shows etc. We also have here volunteers that also mastered the gift of finding ways to make viewers learn more about the Korean culture (especially Korean culture) through the N/T explanations of things throughout the dramas etc.

MANY faithful, devoted subbers, have stayed here through situations that no human should go through because of the actions of these few controlling groups we had here in the past, and I still see some groups to be working here with the same pattern of behavior, that in the long run if they keep them here is not going to be very productive in the end because they need to learn from their past mistakes and stop doing the wrong things they have done/are doing, so far. IT’s a BIG mistake for someone who is not proficient enough (one year college is not enough to be writing Spanish subtitles!) to be assigned parts in endless episodes in dramas in the Spanish language, when a native speaker that knows the Spanish language gramma rules has been told the ‘‘channel is close’’ (whatever that means) That’s the line I always got in the past.

The thing I criticize the most in here is; that by allowing certain groups of people to be controlling many aspects of their positions as CM/Moderator/Subbers/Editors etc…, they allowed a system (that could have been so perfect) to fall into disarray and bias in nature because when you in a team add as a Spanish subber someone from Italy, France, Armenia because they claim they know Spanish, something is really wrong in here. They manage to block many Spanish Native speakers, MANY subbers, that more than qualify to be in that position as a Spanish subber. They also did an injustice to this site/CEO’s when they betrayed the trust some volunteers were given to them, and abused the power given to them in all positions(CM/Moderator/ etc). At one point I thought it was done on purpose by a rival company recruiting people to work here to affect the quality at this site.

I also read somewhere how in some of these English Editing teams everything was halted, completely stopped to change, and not necessarily to add a Quality subtitle, but to the contrary; to add something that took the Quality away from the subtitle; that a hard working volunteer added. To make things more unfair for these volunteers/subbers, they could not even complain about it because they were insulted, and kept away from doing any volunteer work in any drama/movies/shows etc. if they persisted on trying to change something they KNEW was done incorrectly.

As we all know by now, once the main language (English) is lacking Quality work, all OL will lack Quality, too. I always call it: the ‘‘DOMINO EFFECT’’ (unless you are like me that will change into my native language what I know is wrong in the English subtitle). No one here is going to make me a fool, and like I don’t know what I’m doing with my full consent. ‘‘IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN, NO SIRE!’’ You ppl. noticed I know how to ‘‘talk’’ Ghetto? That doesn’t mean I will bring low quality ‘‘talk/writing’’ into my subtitles. That is why the word ANYWAYS was what made me speak/write about this things going on in here that was affecting so much the Quality we loved so much in viki’s subs.

I HOPE and PRAY these many CHANGES help this wonderful site to thrive, and be a success story in always staying as number #1 when it comes to BOTH Quality and Quantity offered here in the translations/Subtitles. So far in the ENGLISH department when it comes to having subtitles fast and with good quality in them, I can say they are accomplishing that in many dramas, but some still needs improvement (Chinese dramas especially).

I ALSO just hope they give the many [OL] other language (other than Spanish and Portuguese) to be offered in dramas, movies, shows for the happiness of viewers who lack in the English language, and only knows their native tongue. Let’s not forget the OL devoted volunteers that are waiting ‘‘in line’’ for their turn to be working here as subbers/translators; for the benefit of this site because a site that offers so many language can surely expect to be the success story ‘‘of a site that offers in their dramas different language worldwide with Quantity and Quality included.’’ Quote/unquote.

[entwyfhasbeenfound]

“Selamat datang!” is what the DeepL translator says is the Indonesian equivalent of “Welcome!”

(Giphy)

[lucylaiche]

@worthyromance

So no one has any business rating a drama until they have watched a major part of the drama! Putting a one-week timer on a drama’s rating system should not be hard. Many dramas don’t allow me to rate until I finish the last episode!

I tried on the Viki app and the app allows me to rate dramas I haven’t even watched yet❗ That certainly needs to be fixed! So much abuse of Viki’s rating system is from people rating dramas that haven’t even aired!

On ******* I left a review saying I would upgrade my rating once I’d finished watching ALL of the episodes. My review was Flagged as Inappropriate Content and it said This review has been removed in public. The last time I checked my review was still there)yet hidden, I assume), not deleted and no message from the channel manager saying they would delete the review.

One other reviewer left a 3 Star and it’s still there.YET, there are 33 pages of reviews that have NOT finished watching ALL of the episodes like Viki policy states before they can leave a review. These reviews have been left in place, and ALL of them are 10 STARS. I took screenshots of all the reviews BEFORE someone (I assume the channel manager) deleted them. The deletions ranged from 1 Star to 7-8 Stars.

I suspect the downvotes on the reviews that still remain are from the disgruntled reviewers who had their reviews deleted or flagged as Inappropriate Content. Like I said, the remaining were ALL 10 Stars. So, tell me someone isn’t manipulating the rating system. three people suggested I complain, Yes, I’m complaining, here in Discussion. Why on this particular board…bc all of you apparently take your job seriously. I was told I couldn’t mention the drama I’m complaining about. I was told I can’t really question anything.

Someone is apparently benefitting (repeatly chosen channel manager perhaps) from the rating system and manipulating it to show 9.7 or better.

I see this as a form of censorship when 1 reviewer leaves a review stating they will upgrade their rating after watching all episodes (and leaves 1 Star) and is flagged as INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT and hidden from public view, WHILE another reviewer leaves a review stating they looking forward to this drama, haven’t watched any episodes yet, but it’s probably going to be outstanding (and leaves a 10 Star) and isn’t flagged nor hidden from view.

Isn’t there anyone here who is able to audit the Reviews? Will my review be released for public view AFTER all of the episodes have aired on Viki, and thus give me the opportunity to upgrade my rating like I said I would do in the review? Will all the other reviews that are currently hidden from public view be released to show publicly once all is done?

I have developed a dislike of the channel manager because of the biased manipulative censorship. My dislike of her is driving me to rate dramas under “her care” much lower than I normally would.

[cgwm808]

@entwyfhasbeenfound Common sense is not common.

[irmar]

@lucylaiche

I have developed a dislike of the channel manager because of the biased manipulative censorship. My dislike of her is driving me to rate dramas under “her care” much lower than I normally would.

You’re really very far from the target here.
Firstly, the Channel Manager has no power to delete or hide the reviews!
Everyone, every registered user, has the right to downvote and/or report for one of the reasons stated in the drop-down menu. And if a number of people do that (I think 3, but don’t quote me on that), then it gets hidden automatically.
Many of us, including me, make it our job to report ALL reviews that were submitted before the drama aired, and, if we have time, also those submitted in the first couple of episodes, regardless of their rating.
BECAUSE IT’S JUST NOT DONE!
Review means review of the whole drama, not of a couple episodes!
And promising to come back and update your review doesn’t count. Just wait, no? Many people don’t come back to update anyway.
We have repeatedly begged Viki to disable reviews until the drama has finished airing on its original country TV, but to no avail.

Now, of course, since all of us have also other things to do, it’s very possible that we don’t catch all such reviews, or that we go there and do this checking only once or twice, not several times. So it may have happened that yours was one of the first, and some others, equally inappropriate, came a bit later and were not reported.
I don’t know of which drama you’re talking about, but we usually do this on dramas where we are on the team, although it’s not uncommon to go help on other dramas as well.
I repeat, we don’t even look at the ratings when doing so. There are some fake reviews with very high ratings (fans of the male lead) and some fake reviews with low ratings (sub-whiners). So they usually balance themselves out. If anything, the positive fan-“reviews” are more, especially nowadays when most new shows and films come pre-subbed.
But no more on that, because we’re being off-topic here. If you want, you can continue the conversation on one of the many threads dedicated to it:

1. Let's all go downvote and flag those who post reviews of shows before they start airing
2. https://discussions.viki.com/t/reviews-section-needs-to-be-moved-below-comments-section/11780
3. Why are people leaving reviews on dramas NOT WATCHED!
4. Update Review Section and Monitor Reviews more
5. Let's talk about the Reviews and Ratings! - #3 by irmar
6. Let's talk about Viki's "Reviews" category...🤨
7. Viewer reviews when shows aren't yet available. How? Why?
8. What is inappropriate content in these reviews?
   
   

[bozoli]

I think majority of us in the Viki Community are of the opinion that Reviews should not be open until a movie or the first episode of a drama isn’t uploaded and available to watch.

Unfinished reviews are definitely not inappropriate content.

[lucylaiche]

@bozoli

Unfinished reviews are definitely not inappropriate content.

Like these???:

[lucylaiche]

@irmar

You’re really very far from the target here.

I’m always willing to learn. I was under the impression the CM had control over the reviews and the ratings for a drama she was responsible for. Thank you for clarifying.

[bozoli]

Inappropriate content primarily refers to vulgar text, personal harassment or language generally offensive against a particular race, religion or gender/sexuality. In essence, everything which goes against guidelines of the Viki community.

We, the volunteer community, sometimes (ab)use this button to mass-flag reviews prior to shows airing. "Omg, Opppppaaaa!!! This is for sure going to be good! 10 stars! " are efficiently filtered out this way, since Viki didn’t give us any other choice how to flag them. And, you know, since Viki si the main culprit for all this mess.

All that taken on the side, I don’t think the examples you published should be reported in any way whatsoever.

[table122000]

I’m very sorry that this happened to you @lucylaiche. Unfortunately, there is a lot of censorship here at Viki. Your review might have contained a trigger word. That said, in my opinion your review was not inappropriate content. Sometimes things get taken down and it is difficult to figure out why. I appreciate that you took the time to leave your honest opinion of the series that you watched. I hope that your review will become visible again. I also hope that you will not be discouraged to leave more reviews in the future. I will say that there are many people who dislike “reviews in progress” and will try to censor those reviews by flagging them even though this type of review is not inappropriate content per se. So if you continue to do this type of review you may see your review flagged again in future, unfortunately.

@bozoli

Inappropriate content primarily refers to vulgar text, personal harassment or language generally offensive against a particular race, religion or gender/sexuality. In essence, everything which goes against guidelines of the Viki community.

Thanks for that reminder, @bozoli. Much appreciated.
I understand that many people are frustrated by the types of reviews that people leave, but they are not inappropriate content that needs to be censored.

[irmar]

@bozoli

Viki didn’t give us any other choice how to flag them.

Exactly. We all know that it’s not inappropriate in the sense of “offensive” or “harmful”. But we have been asking Viki to create another category on the drop-down menu, like “irrelevant content” or “not a real review” or “fake review” for brevity, and nothing has been done, so we have to do our best with the tools we are given.
Even a properly worded review, given just watching one episode, is “not a real review” and I will continue to flag it.
Of course it’s Viki’s fault, when, after the end of each episode, including the very first one, it gives viewers a screen encouraging them to rate the drama and leave a review. This would have made sense if they had an option, like Mydramalist, to rate and review each episode separately. But it is not so, and if it is not so, that ending screen should appear only at the end of the last episode.
We had also asked that, when you try to write a review, there is a message saying
“Are you sure you’ve watched enough of the drama to write a review? Remember, reviews are about the whole work, not just about a few episodes, and remember that we want your opinion on the drama/film, not your expectations, or irrelevant things like your feelings for the actors or when the subtitles are available”
But when did Viki listen to common-sense requests?

[deadliftdiva_548]

Yeah…about those paid subbers and how they should be perfect and let be… in a Ming Dynasty drama, the Emperor was using a “shuttle bus”. There’s a ton of other def lapses from the so-called “pro” and it took us long hours to undo the trash. Before that, someone ripped through a Liu Song Dynasty episode without even the courtesy of reading notes with names and all and it was necessary to remove and redo all but 1 word subs from this person… The delay from redoing the work is more than it would take for the team to sub it, but in the joy of getting a paycheck, the paid subbers run over the volunteers, the editors, the segmenters…and the peace of our teams is destroyed, all for their pay.

If the “paid subbers” were so good, why do so many sites buy or steal our work. Our volunteer work?

Well for one thing, experienced volunteer translators know damn well the difference between self-address and a literal phrase to be translated, and the differences in formality vs informality that make the drama live both in context and where necessary, care to do the research for both native speakers who do not know and those around the world who otherwise do not get what’s going on. Read also published versions even of old poetry and new lyrics, most are using something other than good understanding in English to place their word choices and send it out.

There is a mentality to binge/rip through a drama, and some dramas you can easily skim without making any difference really as to the end understanding. But the small niche I work with, the historical/costume dramas, it is a tragedy for a good drama to suffer both the rip and run of paid subbers and the same action by viewers.

Rude viewers demanding ice water in hell have been here since I started. Nothing was ever done, nothing will ever be done to still the yelling about “how they paid for subs, when the terms say they did not”. If that does change, then pay the volunteers too, and finish this notion of “volunteers” as we are being erased anyway. we are merely a marketing tool now, or so it’s seemed for a couple years already.

One drama was notable in that the excellence of the drama was matched by the viewers, who impossibly offered to “mow our lawns and cook our meals” to ease the daily world burdens on the great translators we had. One moment such as that with courtesy and kindness directed as a laboring team where we must overcome our real world obligations to sub here for free…it was great to see, and it made our labor more sweet.

Our time is ending though, in favor of paid persons and machines who do not and will not take the same care…and the bots have ripped through OL work as well, causing past rebellions and other attempts to shake up this system of this site and the owners above, who have other views of us and remove us from sight as they can, in all ways.

Thank you to the viewers who do get it, show some patience and courtesy, and appreciate us still. Otherwise, why would we work for free.,?. The same reason an artisan may not sell their work, but make it and give it to others… there is no law we must be paid, but better treatment by the overlords would be welcome.

Be safe and well.

GeNie of the Lamp
Mei Daxia