Improving English subtitles AFTER they have been created

Contributing
86

I’ll have to respectfully disagree. There is a difference between not having good subs because a willing volunteer was once inexperienced/ overworked and saying it’s ok to have virtually non-existent standards while actually working on subs in the present.

If I dared to check my first subs I’m sure I’d see mistakes I’ll never have the time to correct. But I don’t cut corners; I’d rather watch elsewhere if “just knowing what’s going on in the scene to some degree” becomes acceptable here.

I’m not perfect, but I make sure I do my best, however low that threshold is.

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87

But they weren’t edited :slight_smile: I just couldn’t wait.

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I can sympathize. :slight_smile:

But I think it’s more about how we go about it as subbers, not as viewers, mostly.

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89

Slightly off topic, but I’ve noticed I shouldn’t do more than 500 subs in one go. After some time, I get used to the original/english language flow and my translations suffer. When I read my subs the next day, they seem a bit off.

Did anyone else notice this?

Sometimes it’s necessary, but I guess it might be better to abandon a finished drama at some point and start subbing the next.

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90

Yes, I’ve also noticed “Save me” instead of “Spare me” or “Have mercy”. I first saw it in W, when the murderer was holding him over the terrace rail or something. The more recent instance was in Defendant (ep.9 @ 2:15)
The truth is that Korean-English or Chinese-English translators are very few and very precious. So one does not want to bother them too much. We cannot afford to turn down those who don’t know perfect English.
On the other hand, the English editors

  1. should correct this kind of thing and
  2. could tell them privately some things, as feedback, to help them improve so that they don’t do the same mistake again. Just as we do on our own teams (at least I do, I don’t know about other mods)

I don’t know why you’re accusing me of finding faults and not providing solutions. The solution is clear and obvious, it’s not rocket science:

  • have higher standards,
  • provide detailed guidelines,
  • try to find the best team-mates possible,
  • try to train those who are not excellent but have potential by giving feedback
  • discuss general issues on Team Discussion (without finger pointing!), so that everyone can benefit and
  • if all else fails, the one who knows has to put extra work editing. If this means take fewer projects, then so be it.
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91

If the English is incomprehensible, instead of complaining to the CM, wouldn’t it be more effective and direct to just go to the original subtitler or the translation editor and ask what does it mean and whether it can be improved? I mean, unless the CM knows the original language, how can he judge the translation quality?

Sometimes, we do make mistakes, because we were in auto-pilot, we were in a rush, we got our grammar all mixed up, we were sleepy, we’re human, endless possibilities.

Also, there are some times where the wording might be awkward, or it might sound strange. Maybe that might be simply because there’s a cultural context to it that might totally make sense to the translator, but not to people without the contextual knowledge. If that’s the case, just get them to add a translator’s note to it so that it makes sense.

And yes, commas and periods are important because punctuation makes sentences a lot easier to read.

if I were to just type a bloody long sentence without any punctuations and expect you to finish reading it within a few seconds you would complain the same as you’re complaining about totally illogical subtitles but if you really feel it doesnt affect your reading ability then Im just gonna type the rest of this paragraph without any punctuation although I really dont understand why youd even go anywhere near that 120 word limit if that segments really that short if you can read this paragraph within five seconds ill say good job

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92

Hmmm… I think you can’t see who translated which subtitle in English if the language is already locked.

English Editor, then.

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93

You’re right, the CM wouldn’t be able to help directly. I think that it would be wrong to write to the original subtitler (even if the episode was still unlocked, which it usually isn’t by the time it gets to Other Languages).
Because the original translator probably doesn’t know enough English to know that what he wrote was not good English. If he did he wouldn’t have written it wrong in the first place. In receiving the message s/he might get offended and say “what’s wrong with it? It’s perfectly clear, that’s exactly what it says in Korean!”.
Only the English Editor will be able to read it from the perspective of an English speaker, even if s/he failed to do this the first time, maybe because s/he was in a rush or something.

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94

If you see my name as Chief Editor, be assured that you will get a thank you and a promise that I am going to both listen to the dialogue and re check the English sub. When I am reviewing sometimes as many as 3000 lines in one day – I do miss errors and commit some too. A lot of “other language” mods formally studied English in school and may know more precise definitions and grammar then some of our subbers and I hate to say it but self-professed English editors at viki. I do not get upset by receiving messages about errors – as long as they are specific rather than “there are a lot of mistakes in the English subbing.” I need to know the details so I can fix the problem.
When I went to public school we spent hours in English class all the way to senior year parsing (diagramming) sentences to identify parts of speech and structure. When I studied Korean in the linguistics class we did the same thing. It is something essential which a second language learner must do to learn the language. But a native speaker is supposed to learn my osmosis from hearing other people speak. So do keep those pms coming to me about both better ways to say something in English or just plain errors.
Someone commented about the use of the ruler in Catholic schools UGH. My early elementary schooling was with Catholic nuns who loved to hit us on our dutifully outstretched palms with the ruler!! Happiest day of my childhood was when my mother told me I was going to public school because a school was opening close to where we lived.
Irmar – you are right – I also assume if the subber knew a better way to do it, they would have done it – they don’t deliberately cause errors. I told the subbers – sub away and leave the details to me. So some subbers don’t even bother with italics or marking music lyrics because they know the editing staff is going to take care of those. My main hope with the subber is that they are going to correctly and completely sub the dialogue to fulfill the intention of the screenwriter and the director. The only time I write to a subber is if they are messing up on really simple word translations – then I know that subber simply does not know enough Korean - sometimes in a sentence which is correctly written in English but a completely wrong translation. Those subbers make critical mistakes because the “Engish only” editor is going to think the sub is fine. It’s better to have an ungrammatical but otherwise correct sub then a grammatical wrong sub.

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95

Can someone explain a bit more about what an English editor is and when he/she gets involved in the process?

I have paid sporadic attention to this topic recently. LIfe has been playing merry hell with me since the end of October (trying to start my own business, living on savings . . . 0.o . . . So I’m sure I’ve missed a lot that has already explained what I’m wondering about. Sorry.

Why I want to get involved as a pretty much mono-lingual English speaker. A few days ago, I found myself sighing a lot watching The Starry Night, The Starry Sea. Many silly moments, but overall a lot of fun.

Except that, with a few exceptions, flower boy mer-prince Wu Julan was pretty consistently being described, in English, as a mermaid.

When he walks on two legs, he does look consistently fragile, but no, honey, merman in English, not mermaid.

I looked at the list of folks working on the subs and could not figure out who the CM was, so I apologetically sent a message to one of the folks listed and asked to have my concerns passed along.

Now, I understand from years of friendship with a friend born in China, that Chinese does not have pronouns that distinguish between male and female, and I have often heard my friend, who has a good grasp of English, call women “he.” And vice-versa. Usually she self-corrects.

So I assume that whatever the word is in Chinese for “mythical half-human, half-fish creature,” it applies to both sexes.

If that’s true, then maybe the English subs should use the gender-neutral term “merperson” to accurately translate the Chinese word. But that would not make sense to many English-speaking viewers.

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96

See that is exactly what a translation editor does.

My job description is to check the subtitles for translation accuracy. I also consult with my fellow editors to find good equivalencies (verbs, adjectives) because the devil is in the details. My grammar is okay? Says the English editors. People seem to seek me out because I’m good at concisely transcribing the exact feeling and context.

Sometimes I do…make awkward subtitles because I’m trying to do too much! At times I cram all this crap in (in 120 characters mind you), but then it’s such a mess. I press delete and just sub intention because it’s too hard. Just like the rest of the team we are walking a fine line between literal and intention. I believe the best subtitles honor both, however this isn’t always possible.

For example, what does this word, Muleung Gardens (무릉도원 武陵桃源) mean to you? This was a word that was casually brought up in one of the dialogues. It is a mythical paradise derived from an ancient Chinese story, the official English translation of the story is Peach Blossom Land. So if I were to put Peach Blossom Land would that make any sense? No, this means nothing and still only means something to you if you knew what I was talking about. The reason that Peach Blossom Land is like paradise is because everyone seemed friendly, was one with the earth, and was easily approached by any ordinary human. It was filled with miles and miles of Peach Blossom Trees. Our chief translation editor inputted utopia.

It is simply not possible to explain this all in 120 characters or less and also have the dialogue intact. Oh dear how would the non-English languages deal with it? While I believe English is quite wordy, French, German for example are even more so!

Sometimes we do leave little notes like Sim Cheong (a girl in a fairytale who saved her blind father known for her filial heart). That’s also part of my job. Subtitlers also do this too. :slight_smile:

English editors literally clean up after our English. As @cgwm808 mentioned I am one of those ID’s that skip formating altogether now when I subtitle. The only one I keep is speaker breaks (or else no one knows who is talking!). I work together with them to find great solutions to our unique “problems” so to speak.

One example is “swain.” I needed a word that meant wench, but for a male and female. Editor suggested swain. While she said it was dated, I said excellent. (We were working on a historical). However~~~ being an English editor isn’t just about fixing grammar as @cgwm808 mentioned. They need to be careful to preserve the intention. There is also a difference between editors who have any inkling of the native language vs. one who does not. The ones who do (seriously even just the alphabet helps) help us identify incomplete subtitles or sus out what is trying to be said.

As a segmenter, I also adjust segments so they are on-time/easier for subtitlers to subtitle. I fix things like:
He
said that
Mother should
go back to China.

This should all be one segment. Another thing I do is find and create missing segments (segments that were never created). For example mouthing segments, signs in English, softly said things that make no sound wave at all!

Does this answer some of your questions?

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97

This part of your post represents my third biggest headache when subtitling:
Do we keep the name and add a note? Do we substitute a name that makes sense in our language/culture? How do we choose the substitute?

If the reference is clear and there is an expression equivalent in meaning in the target language (e.g. something like “this mobile phone is the Ferrari of mobile phones” would have a cultural equivalent for “abc is a Ferrari among xyz”) I use it, but I tend to leave names alone and add notes instead.

In your example, I understand why “utopia” was used, but it means something different to me than a Peach paradise Garden. Therefore, I can’t get the imagery. I don’t oppose the translation, I would probably have used something similar to “utopia” myself. I’m talking about having to make a choice and hope for the best.

This is one case where a monolingual editor would do an awesome job with editing but not with translating adjustments.

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I like notes that explain things because then I learn new and interesting information about cultures, myths, and legends.

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99

Yes. I’m getting a better idea of what’s involved. It would actually be kind of cool to have a Viki exclusive showing how a show gets acquired, subbed, and put up on the website.

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100

I also prefer names closer to the original and notes. There are many times when translating the substitution takes away from the meaning, whereas the original is closer to a similar saying in my language and/or is important for the story.

For example, years ago (not on Viki) I had seen the color “sea blue” translated as “sapphire” (I don’t recall the original language), and I just happened to know that they said “sea blue” in the original, because it was important for a clue or something. In Greek “sea blue” is one word. So it changed the meaning and no one could have guessed.

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102

cgwm808…’‘It’s better to have an ungrammatical but otherwise correct sub then a grammatical wrong sub.’’

Thank you so much that was what I was trying to say all along.

My poor daughter was the one that was hit with a ruler in Catholic school and they traumatized her so much it was painful for me to watch my adorable happy child into a sad face crying begging for me to take her out and I did. But not without making sure the school was investigated and disciplined. I am so sorry you went through the same thing.

I have to add that all language teams should be able to work united not divided. I have worked in Spanish teams where the English teams don’t allow the Spanish team to put anything in TD and we have to communicate through the chatter box or via PM. That kind of behavior has no place here and must be stopped. We need to work in unity and understanding so we can improve the quality of segments, subtitles for the paying viewers to enjoy and that way viki site can become the preferred site for people all over the world.

In other words, what can be improved in any given language should be improved and the only way to do that is through communication. Communication between all the teams. Not criticizing but communicating with one another. Not competing but working together as one.

Thank you. I love working in your team. If you ever need me i’m at your service.

.

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103

This is getting a little off topic here but about the Team Discussion. I only see Spanish and French teams using it to coordinate. All other languages seem to be able to use other systems (KakaoTalk, Line, WhatsApp, GoogleDocs or whatever). Quite frankly I can’t see important things, relevant to all languages, in the TD. I understand that it is convinient, but imagine all other languages would do the same thing. I sometimes wish they’d use something different so the TD could be used for more cross-language relevant information. To me the tool to work together with other languages us more or less unusable.

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104

Many non-native English speakers are better acquainted with grammar and orthography because they didn’t learn English as native speakers do.

Obviously, no non-native speaker of any language learns it like a native speaker.

As a native English speaker, I learned as a tiny child to speak by listening to and imitating the highly idiomatic speech of my parents and others. I learned to speak well because they spoke English well. They wrote it well also and put lots of pressure on me to do the same.

I did not learn, as many non-native speakers do, how to speak English based on a grammar book, which is a book much more for written than spoken English.

I know just enough Spanish to be able to know sometimes when statements in telenovelas are translated pretty literally and when they are idiomatic.

And sometimes in English the literal translation is preferable because it’s so cool.

Cuban friends told me years ago, in the middle of a windy New York winter, “El mono esta chiflando.” The monkey is whistling.

In context, they were saying either “Boy, it’s cold outside!” or “Wow, the wind is cold!”

So in this case a literal translation with a note about an idiomatic translation would make me happy.

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105

I can testify publicly, from personal experience, that you’re super OK in receiving suggestions.

About italics and music… I do hope that now, with the new shortcuts, the subbers will take the minimal trouble of putting them, as it’s a more of a hassle to add them afterwards.

106

I don’t agree. My language is neither Spanish nor French, and I do communicate with my team through a Google sheet. However I visit Team Discussion every day, and I often find very useful things there.
For instance, when the English team is discussing about how to translate a word, what it means literally and the various options. This helps me understand and find the best translation in my own language. Then I can ask questions if I find something I don’t understand, ask who is talking formally to whom (my most usual question, so when sophie2you is there she starts giving the info before I ask!) or point out inconsistencies/typos.
Yes, I often seem to be the only one to do that, so it feels awkward, but I do it nonetheless, and most of the times I am treated very courteously.

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