Well, we are caught between a rock and hard place …
For one Viki is actively advertising with the community and/of volunteers. (Sometimes it’s hard to tell a difference but it seems there is) They say to keep it as a friendly place, that’s what I would like as well, but I see the most effort on volunteers shoulders.
Viki says it doesn’t want to replace volunteers.
You can understand it just as they say.
Or you might make a glimpse in a future direction - everything will advance so, we don’t know about 1,2,3 - more years to come.
But it doesn’t sit well with me that bot subtitle are made and volunteers are “free” to edit them. Either as a volunteer you are hitting the brake now and say, if Viki wants to provide bot translation, you can but kindly leave a segment for translation provided by humans. I will say it again, I believe technically they can still make comparisons between the two subtitles, it just will be more data, needing more energy and space to store it. That will be money Viki might need to spend.
The other option is that there will be kind volunteers that can’t stand the sight of bot subtitles.
Time will tell, or better Viki will tell us what option it will give to the volunteers.
aren’t there several games revolving the inaccuracy of automatic translation services like google translate? simply because it’s so funny how inaccurate they are?
Done. Fighting!
IKR? I’m so grateful to see them there!
Same here.
Here are links to some of the previous discussion threads concerning the bot’s wonderful work, that irmar mentioned. I probably skipped some.
https://discussions.viki.com/t/what-is-vikibot-doing-in-the-dramas/23066
https://discussions.viki.com/t/vikibots-massacre/19761
https://discussions.viki.com/t/a-general-message-to-the-overlords-and-the-keepers-of-the-bot/17471
https://discussions.viki.com/t/vikibot-translations-announcement/17428
On this page you see that the headquarters for the development of a translator were opened in Singapore.
https://rit.rakuten.co.jp/about/
Here you can see a presentation given by Rakuten Institute of Technology representatives where Viki’s Learn Mode is shown as one of their achievements. As well, you can see that we on Viki, same as our viewers, are a part of some important language-learning experiments, which I personally like.
https://www.slideshare.net/rakutentech/ai-based-language-learning-tools
While in this presentation, starting from slide 49, you see the AI development also goes into the direction of speech recognition. Which is exactly what we discussed was lacking in French translations in order to at least define gender which needs to be used in the proper translation.
https://www.slideshare.net/rakutentech/actual-cases-of-applying-ai-related-technologiesin-rakuten
Another interesting outside view of our community and how we perceive the “suggestion tool box” can be found here. (P.S. I’m happy they know they do freak us out sometimes.)
And for those interested in brief recent history of Rakuten:
https://techcrunch.com/2015/07/29/rakuten-it/
Dear, I don’t think we can be replaced by machines for at least 5 years. I base that on the bot’s own performance. 
I really hope that, but when the money is involved, anything is possible 
Really bad move! As a user, one of the best things of viki are subbers, and we all know how bad translating bots are.
One of my fears is that whiners who want immediate subtitles finally got their way and of course that equals bots.
You are right. We need to do that. Great idea!
anyway, Viki owes us an explanation for their decision and response to our petition.
In the name of respect we deserve, I demand an answer from them
Bon beh je suis sur le cul !!! J’ai laissé ce message sur le doc de pétition et je l’ai envoyé au staff !!!
I love Viki because it’s a human project… Currently, I’m out of my mind… I’ve just found that Viki which is an application based on efforts of an entire communauty wants to change us by bots… We have expended this application by our work, we are the spirit of Viki. How can Viki do this to us ? How many hours, how many days have we spent on Viki ? It’s not an application like the others, we became friends and family, we’re sharing our passion for “Dramas”, for Asia. All around the world, our community helps people to access to their passion. We’re not just translating, we’re making Viki alive. Our translations are also alive, how can you think to change us ? Changing us by bots means that you’re looking down our work. I think you don’t know what all this work represents. I’m so sad and angry for all people who gave all their energy to expend Viki !!!
Those whiners who get bot subtitles will probably whine about them too.
Please note the order …
- video streaming service
- volunteers are editing subtitles
- and translated subtitles
Netflix has French subtitles, the official Youtube channels of Chinese producers have (mostly) French subtitles, amazon probably too so yes, you can find legal French subtitles on other platforms than VIKI.
The Chinese producers sometimes have own English subtitles and allow fans to translate it to other languages and sometimes they don’t have English subtitles as default so all subtitles are fan translated.
And some of their content is opened for Google auto translation until fans do it.
I cannot say how good or bad the French subtitles are but since the German subs on Netflix are usually better (wording, expressions, fun to read while watching) I assume the French subs are on a similar level as long as they are done by professionals.
Some older shows on Netflix had really bad German subs so terrible that I switched to English subs to watch it but newer shows have good subs (in German/English). Later I heard that in the past some shows on Netflix didn’t have professional translations which would explain why it was so bad (even with simple things like many typos or missing words).
Some newer shows there now have “true” subs instead of CC subs like in the past. I just got told by someone that for USA CC subs is mostly common while for Germany (e.g. TV) subtitles are not like CC. The US CC version is more like our deaf-subtitles. So I think Netflix changed the way they write the German subs now to a more common version for German viewers with good grammar/wording/clear sentences etc.
this is crazy how everything is about money at the end of the day. greed will be the end of us
I don’t exacly understand why? It’s obvious that “the man” is always better “worker” than “the machine”.
There are 2 types of channels and both have received Viki bot translations implementation message.
On active channels, there was no communication about a bot when the drama was uploaded or when/what/why, there was none. And they have to prove it was not active or “old”.
What is “old”?
- channels where volunteers are inactive.
In that situation, yes, if I can’t come to a rendez-vous, I let a message, I seek help (going in your sense).
But a lot of people don’t do that. If people did that, we would have less problems, but because of some people’s inactivity, they shouldn’t sanction other members, volunteers or the team.
-They are active on other channels, but not on old dramas. So when you message them, they answer. If you tell Viki, the volunteer profile has to be inactive. To ask to take a moderation and really get the moderation, it can take really long with Viki + potential fight between old/new moderators.
It is not a joy party.
-Viki gains more money for upcoming titles, potential clients. So volunteers also have to go where the demand is from viewers. We’re a few. If we go on old dramas, we know we’re going to do it alone (sub/edit). If we don’t go on new dramas, and we compared it with old dramas, we would have a lot more complains or they’d lose lot more clients.
-Subbers and editors on old dramas are not there in profusion. It is difficult to find volunteers for these channels. if you use a Viki bot for these old dramas, the possibility to find an editor to correct it… I don’t know.
I think since people will see it’s translated (even if it’s a bot), they won’t take a look back and edit it (old drama…). It’s dooming them to have bot translations. Except if we erase them all and began again (but then, why putting a bot in the first place if you’re going to do as if the bot wasn’t there?)
-I prefer that subbing old dramas is still possible for new volunteers. We can’t ask them to edit so soon, they will flee and it could be a strenuous task for them at the beginning, so to motivate, translating is the best activity for newcomers to my mind (not editing). If old dramas are going to be bot translated, then problem with Viki pass for them, they won’t find a channel to gain this Viki pass to be able to sub on new dramas with restricted access. And more and more dramas require Viki pass nowadays.
-Taking back a drama that was in the middle of subbing: you have to watch it from the beginning/ sub/edit it from the beginning or still have some communication with the old moderator to have her list of vocabulary / formal/informal info she used during the first half of the episodes.
Most of the time, you won’t have this info, so you have to begin from scratch, as if it was a new drama.
-A lot of volunteers gave their time already on old channels and took them back to finish them.
Now, is it our role and could we ask each volunteer to take old channels to “save them”? It’s a choice, up to everyone. If you’re not motivated, then it won’t progress.
-Viki… when I see they still take some moderators or CM whereas these old channels or other channels were not completed for … years, why do they still pick them and why didn’t they do something all this time? If Viki is not taking care of these channels when they picked CMs, or took a look back to see how it goes, I mean, they can’t count on volunteers to volunteer and tell them what to do in this case (do they listen to us?).
I think if instead of implementing the bot, they asked before, they’d find volunteers who would have taken the job, recruit or finish it themselves. They didn’t ask, they decided because they didn’t know how to pick from step 0 or checking on the channel after X years. What is the role and responsibility of Viki in that? Why do they let inactive members moderate and manage these channels?
The message they sent only talk about bot subbing, but these people who abandoned these projects, they didn’t say anything about this matter and they let them even after taking conclusions that subbing was slow or people were inactive. They know they were and are inactive, but did nothing.
Only about a bot, but nothing else.
So these people will stay CM and moderators.
Where is fairness in their decision?
-> It depends on what you mean by “taking old channels”. What are the tasks you’re going to do?
If it’s to recruit, then the task won’t be so strenuous, but we agree that it’s going to take some time if you don’t know a lot of people who will be interested in giving you a hand on this drama. It depends on extern factors you don’t control. Availability and good will from other volunteers. Team work that is required is not done by 1.
If you can finish it alone, then it depends on the state of the channels. Fixing segments? Re-segmenting? Caption? English subbing? English edition? Your original language?
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The other kind of channels:
- channels where volunteers are active.
I don’t think that mixing old channels with not old channels in the same bag is a pertinent thing to do.
It’s other problematics (English editors availability, our own subbers availability).
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If you want my pov on old dramas:
I’ve taken channels where I had to do everything, that is to say, from fixing segments, segmenting, captioning or editing, or moving other languages from there to there, subbing in my own language and editing in my own language. Everything.
No one helped me, even when I talked about it.
Some of my friends and I took old dramas to finish them. It was not to recruit only, I finished them by giving them my time. Full time. I spent a lot of time.
Now, I’m going to say: why should we take some ingrate tasks or old dramas to finish them because these mods can’t finish them and while they ask for new dramas to moderate (while staying mods on these old dramas where they did nothing?)
Why should they take the fruits of our hard labor on these old dramas, and people including Viki continue to pick them?
We also have the right to moderate new dramas if we want to.
I am not a cleaner or their cleaner, nor a savior.
If Viki could take care of these channels like some of our friends and I did OR check how it was going and pick someone else, then I’m going to say, we wouldn’t have this situation on these dramas.
Just they weren’t there when we needed them. No, they let these channels like that until we came after many years.
The last time I helped on old dramas:
they became all restricted access, no communication from Viki, I had to ask myself whereas I was no CM.
I’ve subbed 149 episodes alone, I needed to edit them. I’d just finished subbing them, in the middle of editing them when they got restricted just the day after. I insisted to edit them, Viki told me I couldn’t.
Do you know how I felt? Do they know how I felt? Of course not!
So taking old channels to finish them is a double-edge bet. We don’t know when it’s going to lose their licence.
Last time I wanted to fix segments, a lot of people wanted to help, but no one did help.
I was alone, I had other on-air channels I had to take care of, so I came a few months later to continue this task… and suddently it was restricted; no communication from Viki. Again.
If I had known, I would have fixed them before or I wouldn’t have fixed them at all and invested my time somewhere else, because no one can today watch them.
So I want to say, maybe these volunteers did abandon their duties, but what about Viki duties?
Shouldn’t they take some responsibilities? Is it responsible to let inactive people CM and moderators while looking for bot translations?
Do they look down on these channels too or on other subbers?
I have received 0 message from Viki on channels where I manage or moderate.
If I were to receive one, I would tell them honestly what I think and all difficulties we had and the help I got from them (where are the scripts I’m waiting for a few months?)
But I have received 1 message on 1 drama where I am a French subber on an old drama.
The CM/French moderator has been inactive / but she is “active” for 3 months on this channel to subtitle or edit it.
Last time I got news: the channel had missing English subs on some episodes and it was not edited.
Now checking: the English edition is not finished and the segmentation is not correct for some subs. Some missing subs.
She sent me 0 message to subtitle it in French since the time I asked to sub this drama. 0 communication.
Now, I’m going to say: Viki didn’t ask anything to the correct people. If the CM and French mod are not managing or moderating or sending messages to their team or recruiting: I don’t see why I should receive a message from Viki that the team was not active or it was slow. I really don’t see why I have received this message, but I really recognize them in “doing first, think later.”
They let her manage and moderate. Do you think she will give her position even though she received this message from Viki? Do you think she will take responsibilities? I doubt it.
Why don’t they ask if some volunteers don’t want to help on these channels and redistribute positions to active members instead of letting inactive members manage and moderate?
Because obviously, these people won’t send messages, delegate or take responsibilities… and that’s when Viki should intervene correctly.
This entire situation is a really crappy move for Viki to pull. I translate Chinese-English when I can, but I also still feel like I can’t ignore this. If they can do it with the French translators, they can do it with anyone eventually.
I’m studying French, Portuguese, and Korean in my free time, and finishing off my Chinese studies right now. I want to be able to translate accurately so that people can get the feeling and emotion of a show, and a bot can’t do that effectively. Not even the most accurate bot.
It’s really inconsiderate of the people who put so much time and effort into their work.
As someone who both uses Viki to watch shows and to translate: If Viki wants to lose their viewers and their volunteers, they can go right ahead with this. Because I don’t think people will put up with it. It’s an extremely corporate and to be honest, greedy move.
Should we all, all languages, stop our work until Viki responds? I don’t know.
AI will never be able to truly fill the place of the hard-working volunteers of Viki.
La langue française est sans doute une des langues les plus riches au monde. Elle est reconnue pour ses nuances dans l’expression des sentiments. Laisser une machine traduire c’est enlever toutes ces nuances, sans mentionner les fautes de grammaires, les concordances de temps… tout ce qui fait que le français est une langue subtile et difficile à appréhender, même pour les natifs que nous sommes. C’est pour ça que je suivrai cette grève, même si je suis moins active ces derniers temps sur les traductions. C’est un non-sens et c’est incompréhensible !
French language is undoubtedly one of the richest in the world. It is known for its nuances in expressing feelings. To let a machine translate it’s like removing all these nuances, without mentioning grammar and all. Is it all that makes French a subtle and difficult language to learn, even for the natives. That’s why I’ll be following the strike, even if I’m less active lately. It’s a complete waste to let a robot translate our beautiful language.
You view the situation as: it’s better to have subs than not to have subs. It’s better to use the bot, than to wait for irresponsible people to translate.
However, what do you say when the quality of such a translation is so bad that the viewer doesn’t understand what the scene is about?
I have stumbled upon such “translations” before. And as a viewer, I abandoned the show.
The truth of the matter is translation which makes no sense repels viewers. It disappoints them.
Until the bot becomes massively more advanced (at least for French), it should not be used here on Viki.
Hola lyla, eso también esta pasando. Pero ese es solo 1 de los casos.
También el viki bot les está reemplazando los subs en los dramas que están con equipos activos y que tenían subs. No solo pasa con los abandonados. Por los abandonados no tenemos excusas y uno debe hacerse responsable. Pero bozoli tiene razón.
La única forma en que esto tiene sentido es que quieren coger a viki como el laboratorio para desarrollar sus software de idiomas y nosotros somos los cerditos de guinea que trabajamos gratis para perfeccionar sus bots. Y eso no es así.
Ellos esperan que editemos los subs horribles que hacen. No mas espera que español va para la misma también.