Petítion to Adress Unfair Practices in Distributing Translation

[nectarine_tart]

@angelight313_941

I have seen many in a drama as Moderator of one language and as subber of that language, and in that same drama as Moderator of another language (they know) and in top of that; they are also subbers of that language, and GET THIS! Editors of the English language too!

Yes, exactly.

@angelight313_941

Let me mention something else that is very important for me to make others aware of; there is certain people that work as English Editors, but have to use translation tools because they ARE not too proficient in the English Language (or whatever other reason) you see them constantly ADDED as English Editors in drama/movies etc… I ask myself; why they don’t give others that may not need the use of translators at all, and provide quality work a chance too?

These are huge problems at Viki, but the question, I think, is: why do Viki staff condone this? How does this benefit them at all? I can’t think of any rational argument that would make these practices a good idea. Speed? But if speed is the only or top consideration, why don’t they just add auto-generated AI translations to the subtitles? No volunteers needed. (Maybe segging could also be done by AI?) Do they want to keep up appearances? But it is costly: they need to maintain the infrastructure for subbing and nobody’s fooled: viewers can see if the translation is robotic and not adjusted to the actual situation in the scene. Maybe they think running a fairer system would require too much staff time so they just let everything go to the dogs? I don’t know. Strange business logic though. In my experience, if something is run badly, the number one reason tends to be negligence. The whole project is not important enough for anyone to be run well, so they just let it go downhill slowly but surely. We all know these problems have been around for quite a few years and Viki is still here. Maybe they are right: for cost and benefit considerations, this is the best thing they can do. Although I still think AI would be cheaper in the long run, but I may be wrong.

[mirjam_465]

@nectarine_tart

But if speed is the only or top consideration,

It is.

@nectarine_tart

Maybe segging could also be done by AI?

Sure, that already happens. But it still takes humans to fix the results of that practice.

@nectarine_tart

viewers can see if the translation is robotic and not adjusted to the actual situation in the scene.

Viki listens to the impatient viewers and those don’t care about good subtitles/segments, if they can distinguish them at all. People nowadays are used to being able to watch anything anywhere the moment they feel like it. They see it as their right.

@nectarine_tart

Although I still think AI would be cheaper in the long run

Probably and the impatient viewers wouldn’t care either way. And maybe we are slowly heading toward that. But getting rid of the volunteers completely would also mean a change in reputation for Viki. What would be special about them then?

[nectarine_tart]

@mirjam_465

Probably and the impatient viewers wouldn’t care either way. And maybe we are slowly heading toward that. But getting rid of the volunteers completely would also mean a change in reputation for Viki. What would be special about them then?

That they are cheap? I don’t know.

What you wrote is a bit sad.I still would like to believe that good translation matters. At least, to the viewers.

[mirjam_465]

@nectarine_tart

What you wrote is a bit sad.I still would like to believe that good translation matters. At least, to the viewers.

Well, it might matter to some viewers, but those are not the ones sending angry messages to Viki about missing subs.

[angelight313_941]

@nectarine_tart

How does this benefit them at all?

It benefits the controlling group because they get large amount of contribution count (quality has no priority for most of this ‘‘hoggers).’’

It benefits the site because paying or none paying viewers that don’t care about better quality subtitles GET to have subtitles in the drama at a faster rate of time. For what I read here some viewers are always complaining for subtitles not being available in dramas on time. So far I have not seeing those comments.I have seen many comments that the subs in their ‘‘native language’’ are terrible and were done with translation tools.

@nectarine_tart
if speed is the only or top consideration, why don’t they just add auto-generated AI translations to the subtitles?

They have that system already here at Rviki those are the dramas/movies that come pre-subbed and even pre-segged. It’s easy to see when they are AI subs because AI can’t/won’t use correct gender in most cases. They also don’t add exclamation point or question mark etc., and if we have a ‘‘bad English editor’’ in the drama ‘‘fixing’’ these terrible subtitles 80% of they time it never happens, and they stay as they come, and the EDITOR just adds a period at the end of the sentence, and in some cases change one or two words leaving a low quality subtitle for viewers to read.

I think the best solution is to create a BLOCKING system where the person is blocked from working as CM in more than 3 dramas/movies OR people working as Moderator should only pick in a drama ONE language as Moderator, and can also be allowed to sub in that same language BUT NOT in any different language they may know.

I know it can be done, and this will open a more FAIR opportunity for other volunteers to be able to work here at RVIKI, and even provide better quality work for viewers to enjoy since I see the main complain here is that some people are providing very poor quality in their Language. When it comes to EDITING they need to be blocked from working in so many dramas/shows like I see some people do in here. I saw several editors here editing about 3 dramas (Chinese/Japanese/ Korean), and they had more editing work to do in 1 or 2 movies. I couldn’t understand how that was humanly possible, but if you look around their projects you can see these facts.

The main thing here is to get to the bottom of WHY some people get to be constantly ‘‘picked’’ as a CM, and others qualify and willing to do the work; NEVER get to be ‘‘picked’’ as CM. I remember way, way, way back I used to apply and was NEVER chosen as CM although I have the qualifications to do so (my new page doesn’t reflect my Gold QC status I had before I deleted my account). I was one of the BLACKLISTED by the control group we have here. I know for a fact this is real and happening for any given Language.

mirjam_465
In reality, though, we have tons of people who are very well capable of being CM, but don’t get the chance anymore because of that handful of serial CMs.

They really need to investigate those handful serial of CM’s, and work on stopping/blocking them ASAP.

[nectarine_tart]

@angelight313_941

The main thing here is to get to the bottom of WHY some people get to be constantly ‘‘picked’’ as a CM, and others qualify and willing to do the work; NEVER get to be ‘‘picked’’ as CM. I remember way, way, way back I used to apply and was NEVER chosen as CM

I don’t think any “investigation” is needed to find out why some people never get a chance to be CMs, while others manage to get multiple projects per year. Last year, I created a database to track who gets what projects and who are the most… shall we say… prolific CMs. These things are well documented on this site, everybody has access to this info. If I wanted to dig deeper (but I also have a life, so no, I won’t) you could also collect info on all their networks to see how they, along with their buddies, effectively “hog” most projects here at Viki. Based on these facts and data, I think the likeliest explanation is that there is no-one reading those CM applications. Who would have time to read 180 applications? A company that doesn’t care about subtitle quality will not care about CM applications either. Time is money, so they just give it to one of those tried and tested individuals who they know will do the job in an inhumane amount of time with machine translation (of course, they’ll pretend they don’t know it’s machine translation). As the saying goes, ‘the fish rots from the head.’ This system has been developed and maintained by Viki, either through conscious intention or negligence or some combination of the two.

[nectarine_tart]

@mirjam_465

Well, it might matter to some viewers, but those are not the ones sending angry messages to Viki about missing subs.

This is unfortunate. I do communicate with Hungarian viewers from my subber profile on social media and keep them updated about my ongoing subbing projects. If you communicate and explain things, people are actually very understanding. What is frustrating for them is when they don’t know why subbing has seemingly stopped on a show. Some people care about subtitle quality, some don’t, that’s for sure. I’m not sure about the proportions, as the Hungarian viewers I have contact with via social media are extremely wary of criticizing translations, fearing backlash from AI warriors who tend to block them if they dare mention that the emperor has no clothes. So for this reason, it’s difficult to gauge viewers’ opinions.

One more thing to add here that we have often discussed with my fellow subbers. If Viki is inundated with machine translation, it will be very difficult for us to “sell” Viki to Hungarian viewers. Because I can’t say the subs are good. Because in many cases, no, they aren’t at all. I’ve come across all kinds of things on Viki: subs where English and Hungarian are mixed, or full English (pretending to be Hungarian), or where in the first line there is an English sentence, and in the line below there is a Hungarian sentence which has nothing to do with the English sentence… OK, this is a somewhat extreme example that nevertheless exists on Viki. Most translations are just good old GT.

[agiulia_449]

It would be interesting to evaluate the growth or decline curve of the Viki company. Being a company manager does not mean being a genius, otherwise there would be no companies that fail. So there are two things: 1. the average Viki viewer is extremely good-natured and continues to pay even for poor quality products (which I think is very likely: I myself see the Viki series on my laptop subtitled in English with automatic translation of the page); 2. the company loses spectators from year to year and the management thinks of taking action by increasing the speed at the expense of quality.

Let us not forget that Viki sells series segmented and subtitled by fans to ■■■■■■■, for which perhaps there is greater attention or ■■■■■■■ simply has them edited.

I read (Viki statistics) that there are 160,000 contributors; let us assume that only half are active, 80,000; let us assume that 40,000 of them abandon contributioning due to manifest injustice in the assignments; there are still 40,000 people working for free for a product that is then sold to 53 million users and other platforms (https://www.adweek.com/convergent-tv/rakuten-asian-media-streamer-viki-double-digit-increase/#:~:text=Rakuten’s%20Asian%20Media%20Streamer%20Viki%20Sees%20Registered%20Users%20Increase%20to%2053%20Million).

I think this is why Viki management is completely uninterested in the quality of translations.

[agiulia_449]

Racing Against Rivals and Robots on the Translation Assembly Line

<<“In experimenting to see what worked and what didn’t,” says Mariliam Semidey, 37, who served as Viki’s senior manager of customer and community experience from July 2016 to June 2021, “we might’ve made some mistakes.” Time and time again while Semidey worked there, the question came up during corporate meetings: Should Viki get rid of its volunteers?>>

[angelight313_941]

@nectarine_tart

I don’t think any “investigation” is needed to find out why some people never get a chance to be CMs, while others manage to get multiple projects per year. Last year, I created a database to track who gets what projects and who are the most… shall we say… prolific CMs. These things are well documented on this site, everybody has access to this info. If I wanted to dig deeper (but I also have a life, so no, I won’t) you could also collect info on all their networks to see how they, along with their buddies, effectively “hog” most projects here at Viki.

I may have used for you the wrong word as ‘‘investigation,’’ but ironically you did just what I wanted to be done, and I don’t know… what word you would have used? I could also call it research; which you did a fantastic job for what I read so far, but sadly you stopped at the good part. I wished someone cared enough to stop these unfair distribution of volunteer work by exposing the systematic way they ‘‘hog’’ projects.

By breaking these unfair pattern of behavior that has been so prevalent for so many years here at Rviki, and by as I suggested making a ‘‘blocking’’ system that can prevent ANYONE from ‘‘hogging’’ projects, we can finally have a fair distribution of volunteer/paid work for ALL/EVERYONE that is willing, and practically begging to be given a chance to offer their great services as volunteers.

The Quality of the subtitles will be maximize in high volumes without ever sacrificing ‘‘Quantity’’ (speed of services) since better qualified volunteers will be able to work at a faster rate of time; unlike SOME of these hoggers that mainly work with translation tools that requires working ‘‘extra time’’ slowing down the availability of the subtitle in the drama/movie etc., frustrating the viewers, and taking away the chance of acquiring more paying subscribers since they would be much more satisfied with the improved quality in translations in any OL.

nectarine_tart
This system has been developed and maintained by Viki, either through conscious intention or negligence or some combination of the two.

That’s when I realized that ‘‘viki’’ is run and ruled by the controlling group we have here, and NOTHING will ever be done to change these SO unfair practices. Now I know why they talk about ‘‘viki’’ like ''its a ‘‘friend’’ a ‘‘she’’ ‘‘their buddy’’ bc that ‘‘viki’’ ‘‘have their back covered.’’

[angelight313_941]

@agiulia_449

: Should Viki get rid of its volunteers?>>

I think they need to get rid of the contribution count reward method that makes some volunteers ‘‘greedy’’ for numbers, and they want to ‘‘hog’’ as much as they can, to get those numbers up. They resort to creating control groups that ‘‘hog’’ most of the work done by their ‘‘buddy system.’’

They need to realize that SOME paid subbers although may be ‘‘faster’’ workers; not all of them are providing quality work in their subs. They need to concentrate on HOW to provide Quality and Quantity work at the same time by creating a system that don’t keep abusers/translation tools users For ALL of their translation working as volunteers. Those type of volunteers are not productive for this site.

WE are Human and we might need to use a translation tool for a word or two, but if they don’t know the Language proficient enough they have no business offering a volunteer work that will lack quality, and will affect quantity since is time consuming.

Getting rid of volunteers won’t solve the problem because some PAID subbers have given crappy work here too. I have seen some subtitles that paid subbers have done, and they leave a lot to be desired when it comes to Quality work. AI? GOD forbid they grow on that idea since they will make the biggest mistake of their life since AI subtitles in my opinion are the worst ones to have in dramas/movies (unless we have great honest editors that know the OL proficient enough to provide the viewer great quality editing).

When RVIKI allowed controlling groups of volunteers (paid/non paid), to close/stop the availability of having more qualified volunteers to be able to work here at RVIKi: THAT’S when they need to rethink; WHERE did Viki go wrong when implementing the volunteer program? Who is the main culprit here? IN my opinion the ‘‘hoggers’’ that have taken ‘‘control here’’ like they ‘‘own’’ the place.

[mas4]

@nectarine_tart

I think the likeliest explanation is that there is no-one reading those CM applications. Who would have time to read 180 applications?

I think they’re understaffed. We’ve seen a lot of Viki employees leave and not be replaced. If it’s not that, then it’s just laziness.
In any case, Viki doesn’t keep its promises. Once again, they don’t respect their own guidelines. We’re becoming more and more of a closed community and Viki is only interested in taking advantage of us. We used to have a reputation for having the best subtitles, but that’s no longer the case.

Translating from English has become difficult, with subtitles that make no sense. I don’t understand why the episodes are being released when the English edition is clearly not finished. Nor do I understand the point of making viewers read incorrect subtitles.

@mirjam_465

Well, it might matter to some viewers, but those are not the ones sending angry messages to Viki about missing subs.

People are never satisfied anyway. They’re the loudest, but I don’t think they represent the vast majority.
Viki chooses to listen to those who pay a subscription as if the work of volunteers didn’t make money or attract subscribers.

[irmar]

@mas4

I don’t understand why the episodes are being released when the English edition is clearly not finished.

Viki asks this from CMs. They tell them not to have a TE (without whom even the best English editor, if s/he doesn’t know the source language, risks leaving mistakes in meaning), the role of the GE is all but gone and very often not even a CE is allowed!
And when they do allow you a CE, they tell you to release to other languages immediately as soon as the subtitles are translated, before the CE starts working. (Sometimes it happens that not even segment Quality Control is allowed!) If the English editor is quick enough, the editing will be done while the translation in other languages gets done. The translators may not have the best version, but by the time the OL editor comes, the English edition will also be complete. Therefore there can still be a good outcome in a short time.
The viewers often don’t care for excellent subtitles, they just want to know what happened in their favourite series. Even before, when we had proper TE, GE and CE, they often chose not to wait, they watched right away, and even when it was only partly translated and missing pieces here and there!

[nectarine_tart]

@mas4

I think they’re understaffed. We’ve seen a lot of Viki employees leave and not be replaced. If it’s not that, then it’s just laziness.

I think the CM could be selected using a simple algorithm that would collect important/pertintent data from each applicant’s background in an easily digestible form. This could include factors such as experience, when they were CM for the last time, how many parallel projects they have (including editor, moderator, subber, segger) with preference for people who seem to have more free capacity, and prioritizing a healthy rotation of capable individuals. There should be maybe a quota for newbies who will be assisted by more experience co-CMs?

My point is that if they don’t have staff for this, this could be done by a program and Viki staff would just need to check if what the program comes up with is OK.

[mirjam_465]

@irmar

they tell you to release to other languages immediately as soon as the subtitles are translated

Those releases happen after QC. When the segmenters and CS are done, OL is allowed to translate and at the same time, the English team, whether it’s one person or more, starts editing. Then when the CE is finished, OL moderators/editors can start editing.
Of course, there are also cases where the CM (or Viki?) doesn’t even bother to hire a CS…

This may work for the big teams, but if you are translating on your own, you’d rather wait with translating until the English subtitles are edited.

@irmar

The viewers often don’t care for excellent subtitles,

At least the ones who complain about the speed don’t. I guess most of them wouldn’t even recognize an excellent subtitle. I on the other hand can get so annoyed by bad subtitles that I switch to subtitles in another language. If that isn’t an option, I’d rather wait longer to watch a show.

And now, even the percentage of subtitles is more important than the subtitles themselves. At least on one show (and I’m sure it won’t be the last one), we are now supposed to immediately fill up any segment we might create cause the percentage of subtitles are not supposed to go below 100%. We fill them up with an invisible character (for both presubbed languages) so it doesn’t make a difference for the viewer experience; it’s just that no viewer can complain about missing subtitles this way. Extra work for us, with no actual benefit.
So bad subtitles or no subtitles, it doesn’t matter to Viki as long as the viewers don’t (seem to) have reason to complain.

@nectarine_tart

My point is that if they don’t have staff for this

I think the problem is that there is only 1 person in charge of choosing CMs. This person may not only be busy but also biased. I don’t think the choosing is so much work that they can’t do it at all. After all, the most unfit options (those who are not QC yet) have already been filtered out by the system, and there are no application letters to read. It just might make the process a bit more fair if the decisions were taken by a (small) group of people instead of just one.

[mas4]

@irmar

Viki asks this from CMs

I know that. I was asking why Viki ask to do this. In the end, wrong subtitles spread to all languages. You say it’s because of viewers. Why does their opinion count more than ours?

@irmar

The translators may not have the best version, but by the time the OL editor comes, the English edition will also be complete.

This isn’t always true. On some projects, we’re told that the English edition has been done, not that they’ll do it later.

[mirjam_465]

@mas4

On some projects, we’re told that the English edition has been done, not that they’ll do it later.

That’s because Viki doesn’t worry about all projects equally. The more popular the show, the more chance there is that viewers get impatient and they want to prevent that from happening. Also, some CMs just release before editing because they think it’s the norm nowadays while others do things the old way unless they get specific instructions not to.

[nectarine_tart]

@mirjam_465

and there are no application letters to read.

While this is true, the person choosing the CM has to consider, say, 180-200 applications. How do they make a decision if not looking at the applicants’ backgrounds? That involves looking at all those applicant profiles. That is a lot, I think, for 1 person UNLESS… unless the information they need is presented to them in a spreadsheet, for example, or if there is an algorithm using selection criteria (I suggested a few above), which presents the results in an easily digestible way.

[mirjam_465]

@nectarine_tart

How do they make a decision if not looking at the applicants’ backgrounds?

The choices they make don’t give me the impression that they thoroughly investigate everyone’s background. It’s more like, “oh, that person was fast on their last project (which was not long ago so it’s easy to remember); let’s give the new channel to them.”
Whether they actually did a good job in the true sense of the word, whether in case they didn’t, it was actually their own fault or not, or whether there might be other great options is irrelevant to Viki. They just need the guarantee that the viewers will stay satisfied.

[nectarine_tart]

@mirjam_465

The choices they make don’t give me the impression that they thoroughly investigate everyone’s background.

I know. Actually, I said the same a bit above. To clarify my point: If the sole reason Viki lacks a genuine application process for CM positions is due to insufficient staff to manage it, and if given the opportunity, they would embrace a proper process, then the solution I proposed seems feasible: a streamlined collection of applicant data in a format that’s easily manageable and reviewable.